Being Put in "Check"

luv2laugh · Jan 6, 2013

I have heard on the forum about dogs "being checked" and I know it is an appropriate part of dog behavior. That being said, I have absolutely no idea what being checked looks like.

Oso is a year and a half now and I've noticed a very interesting change in him. Oso is not neutered and extremely hyper and even as a pup attracted a lot of attention. Typically, if another dog went after him, he would submit entirely or run and hide. The last couple times, however, he "fought" back. It has happened two times. (let me note that both the dogs he fought back to were shorter than him -although stockier, to be sure).

Let me describe the "fight" -

Both times it was initiated by the other dog. The other dog jumped at Oso snarling and snapping and Oso started snapping and snarling back. They weren't wrestling and neither of them got hurt. The first time, I was scared and told my husband to break it up (it was between Oso and my BIL's dog). My husband took a few moments to do so. The second time it was broken up almost immediately. Both owners were there and the other dog pulled his dog off and I pulled Oso off.

Oso calmed down within seconds both times and wasn't hurt. Now the first dog this happened with was a pit bull and the second a bulldogish looking dog. If they wanted to hurt Oso, he would be very hurt.

The second dog's owner was fairly certain it was due to Oso's testes and I agree. The second dog tried to attack Oso one more time (while Oso was going poo actually), the owner was right there, pulled him off and left with him. I had watched before we came in and the bulldog was getting along with the other dogs fine and dandy pre-Oso.

Now back to my original thought. Are they trying to "put Oso in check" and establish themselves as a dominant dog? Or is this just abnormal, unbalanced behavior on their part - perhaps because they were neutered too soon?

**Oso is still submissive to some dogs. Oso was playing quarterback racing around with several dogs chasing him and a dog (also shorter than him, but older) came over barking (in a referee type bark). Oso stopped playing and tried to lick him in the mouth while he was barking.

If possible, I'd love a description of what "being checked" in a healthy way looks like as well.

threefsh · Jan 6, 2013

RBD could give you an accurate description of an intact male being put in check. I've never seen an altered male do it to an unaltered male, to be honest. It sounds like those dogs just have bad manners.

texasred · Jan 6, 2013

For a younger dog to be put in Check it needs to have been challenging the older dog. I'm not talking about running up to it barring its teeth. I'm taking about body checking, and the all to common look what I have as I shove it in your face but you can't touch it. Followed by the I'm a tough guy stance. These are all games that puppies play but teen dogs use it to push older dogs. Most of the time a older dog will put the young one in check by simply pinning it down and doing some growling. Basically saying knock it off, you don't want any of this. If this is whats going on I wouldn't break it up, if its a dog you trust. This last thing is just a personal opinion. I don't let my dogs play with pits. All dogs can bite or get into a fight but pits are capable of inflicting more damage. Ive seen one rip the hind leg off a beagle and that was enough for me to never let one of my Vs interact with them.

luv2laugh · Jan 7, 2013

Thank you both for your responses! And Texas Red for your description.

This doesn't sound like "being checked" and is probably unhealthy. I'd like to do more exploration into dog behavior and understand the interactions I see between the dogs.

TexasRed, I think that is probably a smart way to go, in concerns to the pit bull breeds. I really wanted to be an advocate for pits, but since getting Oso I've seen a lot of play behavior from pit bull breeds and it is very rare that I find one who plays in a way I feel completely safe with. The one he was playing with at Christmas was my brother-in-law's dog, so I could see it becoming an issue, but they can co-exist without playing.

lyra · Jan 7, 2013

There is a reason why Pit Bulls are banned in the UK! It is probably more the owners than the breed but some breeds just aren't as cuddly as Vs!

redbirddog · Jan 7, 2013

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2012/08/in-this-corner-intact-male-vizslas.html

We just spent the weekend in a beach town that allows dogs off leash. Bailey and Chloe came across over 100 dogs a day on our walks of all sizes. Chloe could care less about other dogs but Bailey wants to greet other dogs.

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2013/01/vizslas-enjoying-carmel.html

It is the "stand" you want to watch for and immediately distract and get the dogs apart. You don't have much time. It happens most often with dogs about the same size where the test will happen. If it is a quick meet and move on you will most likely not to have problems. I'll never hang around and chat with the other dog's owner, if I have any concern the dogs are going to have to "figure it out." Not worth the strain for the dogs to have time to work out a pecking order. Standing around means, I think, "this must be a pack my human is part of." Just a guess on my part. It is best to move along.

I almost always carry my whistle and a quick toot and a "let's go Bailey" that works for us.

I avoid Pit Bulls. Not their fault but the locking jaw mechanism they have just isn't worth it to test.

Hunting dogs are tough, but darn I love them.

RBD

luv2laugh · Jan 7, 2013

Those pictures are great, RBD. That looks like such a nice weekend getaway!

Thank you for your comments. The bulldog certainly had that dominant "stance." There was a pause before the attack, so if I knew better, I may have been able to prevent it. Moving on seems like wise advice.

texasred · Jan 7, 2013

Sometimes its the stand with one dog trying to cut off the other dogs path. A stand up proud, chest out and tail high. You need to watch for it happening with either dog.

I'm not pro or anti pit. I wouldn't want others to be able to tell me what kind of dog I can or can't own. I know their power and just chose to play it safe in the same way I would not let one of my dogs play with a toy breed. A vizsla side kick could be devastating to a 5 pound dog.

Ozkar · Jan 7, 2013

Sounds a little like you're confusing a check with a correction. From the description that you have given and bearing in mind the pups age, I would say that they are just working each other out. As you said, if the bull terrier type dogs wanted to, they could have instantly inflicted damage to your pup, but they chose not to. This to me is the type of interaction which should be allowed to transpire without interference.

Now, if one or the other dog is coping a hiding, then yes, we must intervene to avoid injury. However, if it is what I call posturing, then I let it happen and allow the dogs to work it out.

An example. A large lab took exception to Astro one day. They had a little stoush with teeth barred, lots of noise, lots of movement, but I could see there was no intent from either party to injure. So I let it run it's course and soon enough they worked it out and were respectful of each others space.

On the other hand, a few weeks ago, two large pit bull mix breeds set upon Astro while he and Zsa Zsa were wrestling. He was blindsided and caught by surprise. To his credit and perhaps as he had no time to think, just defend, he turned on the two dogs who set upon him and took them both on for long enough for me to get there and pull the two pit bulls off. the difference being, I could see the intent with the two bull breed dogs and they had blood in their eyes. Typically, while all this was going on, the owners were uttering barely audible stop it commands, which naturally had zero effect.

So, be careful not to confuse the two interactions as I am of the belief that it is important for their social development to work this sort of stuff out. At 18 months of age and still being intact, your little boy is now becoming a man and he and some other dogs are still working out how all that works. His behaviour will become more confident with other dogs and he may also now put up with a lot less from other males than he previously has.

My Astro had his manhood stolen when he was a little pup. I had no choice in the matter, as I got him at 6.5 months as a re-home. But, the point is, he is now nearly 2. Over the last 6 months, I have seen him do things he never has before. He now stands up for himself when he feels it is necessary. He picks and chooses his battles based on if he thinks it's worth it. For example, yesterday a small cocker spaniel cross with strong protective behaviour towards it's owner kept snapping at him. He just moved away and ignored it. It wasn't a threat and as such, he took no notice of it. He kind of treated it with disdain and was dismissive of it, but never retaliated when it snapped at him, just moved away. On the other hand, there have been dogs that have snapped at him, that are his size or larger and he has turned immediately and driven them into the ground. So it all depends I guess on the value he places in the interaction.

I hope that makes sense???

texasred · Jan 8, 2013

While I don't disagree with you explanation between a check and a correction, I don't let my dogs interact with dogs that we just come across.
They interact with other trained hunting dogs, with the exception of a puppy lab mix. He comes over about once a week for play time.

Ozkar · Jan 8, 2013

Re: Re: Being Put in "Check"

TexasRed said:
While I don't disagree with you explanation between a check and a correction, I don't let my dogs interact with dogs that we just come across.
They interact with other trained hunting dogs, with the exception of a puppy lab mix. He comes over about once a week for play time.

I take a non cotton wool approach. Mine are often walked where they must come into contact with other dogs. Hence I like them to have some skills in dealing with untrained, non hunting dogs. As long as I am always there to monitor events I think it makes good practical city sense.....

born36 · Jan 8, 2013

I agree.

A correction is the posturing and perhaps a quick low grunt or bark.

A check is sometimes completely silent. A couple weekends ago we were walking on a beach when when Mac who is 20 months met an English pointer and German Shepard. Mac and the pointer started playing straight away when suddenly and silently the German Shepard attached making Mac yelp and whine like I have never heard. Mac looked like he was melting. He sat straight down with eyes cast down to try to tell the German Shepard he meant no harm. I then called Mac back to me. I was around 20 yards away and in almost slow motion as soon Mac started to move I saw the German Shepard spin straight back to Mac and go at him again to which Mac start to yelp before the dog got to him again. I then put on the deepest tone of voice of could and and yelled ' HHHEYYYYYY!!!!!!'

To my surprise the other dog froze and sat down. I then had a few choice words for the owner about him having his dog off lead if he knows that it is aggressive. I am amazed at how good my pup has trained me to notice when he needs help. I am just glad that the dog although aggressive is at least good at turning off when corrected. Or the dog could just sense that I was ready to complete have a go at it if needed. I was furious and the German Shepard must have felt it.

luv2laugh · Jan 8, 2013

Ozkar it sounds like posturing may be what I'm describing then - teeth bared, lots of noise, lots of movement, but amazingly no harm done.

Unfortunately for me though, without support from the other party, I may not be able to break it up (I'm a pretty small woman and scared of getting bit myself). **Also though, if I did let them work it out, I would have to have a lot of trust in the other owner, as well as know the dog as well balanced.

Another factor, though, is that Oso is intact and the other two dogs were neutered. Does this affect their ability to work it out at all?

For me, avoiding this conflict is easier and probably moving on is the best call, but I would like Oso to be able to get social experiences needed. Since I get the feeling that a lot of this has to do with neutering, I'm not sure if it's a natural thing balanced dogs do or if the other dogs are unbalanced. It sounds like it may be natural.

born - I am familiar with the behavior you are describing with the German Shepard. I have encountered a couple dogs who have done this - both times it was the other dog Oso was playing with. I bring a spray bottle when Oso and I go out. We don't really need it for him anymore, but if I see a dog doing this (actually pretty easy to identify), I spray the dog right in the face. Now not all dogs dislike water, but these dogs are at least surprised and stop and walk away. At first I was worried how the owners would react, but I've done this several times and the owners always have thanked me. Now, if I don't catch the dog pre-attack the water means absolutely nothing. I get really angry too. I'm thinking of creating a little paper to hand out delineating how I feel about aggressive dogs off leash. It would go something like this....

"Dear Owner,

I am sure your dog is an amazing loyal companion to you and an important part of your life. I am sure he also enjoys being off leash. That being said, he is acting in a dangerous way to other animals. If your dog causes harm to another animal, he can be labeled "vicious" and be at risk for being put to sleep. If your dog injures my dog, it will be reported. I am not alone in this. Not only is it responsible for you to protect other people's dogs, but to protect your own by A) not putting your dog in a situation where he can hurt others or B) putting a muzzle on your dog so that he can not cause injury to others (and ultimately himself). If your dog plays nicely most of the time, an open basket muzzle can be an excellent tool. I sincerely hope that you make the best choice for your dog in the future"

- A fellow pet owner

born36 · Jan 8, 2013

Remember that for the most part your pup is fast!!!

So hopefully he would out run the baddies. Also I understand your worry about being bit but let's hope that it would never come to that.

luv2laugh · Jan 8, 2013

Oso is fast, he doesn't aways run though. We can get him to run if we see warning signs though (and that stops it). There are very very few dogs who can keep up with a conditioned V in speed and distance. ;D

Luckily, since we rarely go to dog parks anymore, these issues don't pop up as much. We do run into dogs on a fairly regular basis on off leash walks though.

Oso has gotten injured before, but not by a pure attack. I can now recognize that that behavior is unsafe and we stop playing when dogs play that way. The stitches actually would have cost around $800 w/o insurance, as there was a deeper cavity (?) below and it could have punctured the lungs so we needed x-rays. He has quite a big scar.

Being Put in "Check"

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