Fear agression in new puppy

jjohnson · Nov 9, 2011

Hello,

My husband and I are new owners of a 5 month old Vizsla that we love to death; however he is having issues with fear and/or aggression that are making me uncomfortable and I am wondering if anyone else has had similar problems?

We got Gus from what we thought was a very reputable breeder at 10 weeks old. It's ironic that i spoke to the breeder and expressed that if there's one thing I do not want in a dog, its any form of agression. He assured me that his puppies were great, that the parents are "dual champions" and there shouldn't be any agression issues. When we met Gus, he was not shy at all and ran right up to us.

Fast forward to the second day we had Gus. A friend stopped by with his 4-year old daughter, and immediately my 10-week old puppy started growling at her and eventually snapped. This scared me and I called the breeder immediately, who justified it as saying Gus was just scared, and it was surely an isolated incident.

Fast forward several more months. Gus is a sweet puppy with everyone he knows, but he hates strangers and children. He will sometimes run at strangers in the park and bark and growl at them. He growls at small kids. Sometimes, if we try to move him off the couch while he is sleeping he will growl at as. Now, not all of this happens all the time; with some people he is fine, and with some other people, he will never warm up to them. We have tried socializing the heck out of him (beginning after the snapping insident at 10 weeks) - we take him to parks and on walks daily, sit and watch kids playing on the playground, we go in Petco, etc., and we have done puppy kindergarten (where after 6 weeks he still didn't allow any of the other people to touch him. )

We are getting really discouraged because none of this is seeming to help. We are thinking of hiring a dog behaviorist, but I don't want to spend $800 and have no improvement. The biggest issue right now is him chasing after people and growling at them in the park when he is off-leash. I don't want this to escalate; it is not a huge problem now because he is a cute little puppy but it will not be at all tolderable when he is 60 pounds. Any advice or similar experiences?

threefsh · Nov 9, 2011

I think the key is to make sure that strangers and kids are always a source of good things. You can give people in parks and other places small treats (while he's not looking) to give to Gus when he runs up to them. It sounds like he's a very dominant dog (from your description). Just the fact that he "ran right up" to you is an indication that he is not afraid of new things/people. I would train him with the "off" command for your couch so that he knows that YOU own the space and not him.

I wouldn't necessarily go straight to a behaviorist, but I think he would benefit from some private trainer sessions. It helps to have that 1-on-1 attention from a trainer so you can specifically target his problem behaviors.

redbirddog · Nov 9, 2011

We are getting really discouraged because none of this is seeming to help. We are thinking of hiring a dog behaviorist, but I don't want to spend $800 and have no improvement.

I'd spend it in a minute. Dog behaviorist spend many years and thousands of hours with dogs and the good ones know how a dog thinks.

There are things going on that at 5 months old you can change. Now is the time, not "I don't want this to escalate; it is not a huge problem now because he is a cute little puppy but it will not be at all tolderable when he is 60 pounds."

I never think about the money I spend on my "best friends." You have 12+ more years with this little guy. If you get help what did that cost you in the long run? $800 divided by 144 months is $5.50 per month. The trick is finding the right behaviorist.

Good luck. We had problems with our female and children. She is better but does not really like childrens energy level. She will avoid if she can.

I did "hire" a couple neighborhood girls to help me with her.

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2009/07/raina-and-jada-super-dog-training.html

RBD

jjohnson · Nov 9, 2011

Thanks for the link to your blog. It is encouraging. While we plan on having kids soon, we really don't have access to many! We have no neighbor kids, and we only have a niece who is a newborn. There are some little boys that play at a local park that have taken an interest in Gus, and he seems interested in them, like he wants to chase their ball and stuff, but when they approach him, he freaks out. They can give him treats, but he still shies away. I will try to enlist them more to help...

And I am aware that $800 in the whole scheme of things is not that much. If it works, it would be 100% worth it and I am willing to do it (my family just spent over $15,000 on double knee replacements for the family lab, so we aren't afraid to spend money on our dogs!)

sarahaf · Nov 9, 2011

The behavior you describe sounds almost identical to what we've been dealing with. As I've posted before, I will recommend that you select a certified applied animal behaviorist or diplomate of the american college of veterinary behavior as a starting point. These are the true experts in animal behavior problems. Ours didn't charge 800--just 400 for a complete package. If you don't have one of these professionals near you, ask for a referral to someone closer qualified to work with fear aggression.

http://www.dacvb.org/resources/find/ https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1J4_rjdZ6ueYdxZl4ULl-VpXLxonXKHEVUJqeLdDQ19U&pli=1

I'm also copying here some links I posted on another thread for techniques you can try (though it's best to have a professional guide you). The technique of choice is called desensitization and counterconditioning, and it works for all types of aggression as well as fears (any kind of behavior that involves emotional arousal). http://www.aspcabehavior.org/articles/14/Desensitization-and-Counterconditioning.aspx

This is an example video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI13v9JgJu0

Here are a couple of other examples: http://www.youtube.com/user/SuperBark1#p/u/71/hsmntBE1M5g

http://www.youtube.com/user/SuperBark1#p/u/77/1l4Jd1bu3pY

jjohnson · Nov 10, 2011

Thanks for the links. We have been doing the treat thing since puppy kindergarten, since this was the advice they gave us. I think we probably just have to keep doing it, and possibly get some professional help.

sarahaf · Nov 10, 2011

Yeah, the professional help is worth it for the support/reassurance alone. It's very stressful going through this. It has been slow going with Rosie, but she is better than when we started. So it sounds like you are doing the right things. Not sure how you are going about using the treats. We were advised to feed Rosie the treats ourselves, not to have the stranger offer them (exception: the stranger can drop a treat on the ground for Rosie, but not walk up to her to hand feed it to her, which is too threatening--and, with kids, may not be safe). General rule of thumb being if the dog reacts (barks, growls, or has a tense, timid, or aggressive body posture), the stranger is too close, or the encounter was too intense in some way for where the dog is at this point. What we do while out on walks is get Rosie in a sit when strangers approach (particularly when we see any signs of tension suggesting that Rosie may be inclined to react to that person), feed her treats while the stranger passes, and stop feeding when they have passed. With Rosie, we have to do this especially with children, bicycles, joggers, and anyone who is moving quickly or erratically. Over time, we are seeing less inclination to react to all of these stimuli even in the absence of treats, but it does take time. She's a delight in many ways, but a very anxious dog.

sarahaf · Nov 15, 2011

Here is another resource that may help. http://www.vizslaforums.com/index.php/topic,3045.msg20417/topicseen.html#new

Ozkar · Nov 15, 2011

May I ask what you do when he reacts in the manner you outlined?

jjohnson · Dec 22, 2011

Update on Gus, in case anybody cares

After seeing some improvement in his behavior over the past several weeks, we had him neutered, and apparently he was pretty terrified at the vet's office. He backed himself into the corner of the cage and growled and snapped at anyone who tried to get him out. The vet reccomended we get professional help with Gus's fear aggression and anxiety issues.

So, today I booked an appointment with one of only 50 or so certified applied animal behaviorists (CAAB's) in the country. I think this guy should be good; he is a professor at the University of Washington, and takes a very scientific approach to animal behavior. We meet with him in the middle of January so we shall see how it goes!

I'm pretty convinced Gus's fear is 90% genetic (after learning form the breeder that "stranger's scare the s***" out of his mom, according to the breeder.) So while Gus will never be a happy-go-lucky dog, hopefully we will learn some ways to manage this so he doesn't become dangerous.

redbirddog · Dec 23, 2011

jjohnson,

I care. Good luck to Gus and your family.

(after learning form the breeder that "stranger's scare the s***" out of his mom, according to the breeder

That a breeder would breed to a female with this trait does not bode well for our breed.

Let us know what the behaviorist comes up with so others can learn from your experience.

Merry Christmas. Gus and you will work it out with hard work on both your parts.

RBD
http://redbirddog.blogspot.com

jjohnson · Dec 23, 2011

Thank you, Merry Christmas to you too!

I agree that the breeder should not have bred a shy dog. I wish I had known. We paid over $1,000 for this show-quality dog because I knew that shyness was penalized in the breed, so I figured if I got a show-quality dog I would be okay. Guess that's what we get for not meeting the mom first!

redbirddog · Dec 23, 2011

Guess that's what we get for not meeting the mom first!

And if you can meet the sire even better!

Good luck. I think you'll be fine. You have the correct attitude to win.

Gus may never be a "social" butterfly but could be better.

Puppy buyers need to really know what they are doing. Not an easy task but so much better than living with a dog with problems caused by breeding than dealing with it for more than a decade.

Merry Christmas again. Can't say it enough. It's Christmas time.

RBD

jjohnson · Jan 16, 2012

Saturday we met with Dr. Ha, a trainer/ certified applied animal behaviorist regarding Gus's behavior and what we can do to improve it. It was extremely interesting, and we learned a lot about dog behavior and our pup in general. Dr. Ha is a professor at the University of Washington and all of his methods are based on science and his research.

I was surprised to learn that he sees fearful Vizslas very oftenin his practice, and actually sees more Vizslas with bite histories than rottweilers and some other more stereotypically-agressive dogs. The reason is that Vizslas are very alert, reactive dogs. This is what makes them excellent hunters, but also very prone to fear since they are hyper-alert of their surroundings. While fear is common to some degree, Dr. Ha was very suprised to see such fear in such a young dog, without having gone through some tramatic experience. He termed Gus's fear as "profound, biological/genetic fear" (or something like that!) This means (thank goodness) it probbaly wasn't entirely us that screwed him up; but there is a very strong genetic component to his behavior. He knew this almost immediately, since gus had snapped at a little girl when he was only 10 weeks old, and since his mom is also shy.

As for "treatment" there are several things we are going to do. The first thing, and something I had enevr heard of, is that Gus is never to eat from his food bowl again! Dr. Ha thinks that we haven't made it clear enough that we are in charge around here. The best way to show that we are in charge, is to completely control his food. This means he will only get his food through being hand-fed by us, strangers, or as rewards for being good (treats). Hopefully, Gus will realize that we are in charge and he doesn't have to worry so much!

Next, is classic counter-conditioning. Basically, we slowly warm him up to strangers with LOTS of treats. Essentially he should learn that strangers=treats. What I learned though, is that 8-9 months is another "fear period" in pups, so we aren't supposed to expose him to a ton of people or scary experiences until about 10 months now. I think that before we may have over-done it on the socialization in attempts to help him learn to like people! Dogs go through another fear stage at 1.5-2 years, and are fully developed at 2 years. So we have until he's two to really work on this stuff.

According to Dr. Ha, "alpha-rolling" and all that stuff is B.S. He says that most domestic dogs are so far removed from the wolves they were orignally bred from, that most dogs don't have the alpha thing going anymore. (So we are still okay letting Gus sleep on our bed

Vizslas supposedly do have a strong pack instict, but it is not as much about showing your dog you are alpha dog, as it is about showing your dog that you are in charge and you are repsonsible for taking care of him.

Anyway, we are now starting to feed gus by hand, and increase the treats when seeing strangers, as well as not pushing the socialization until 10 months. Dr. Ha said there is a chance that all our work may not pay off, since Gus's fear is mostly genetic, but we can sure try! Medication is always an option, but it is a last resort for us!

Sorry for the long-winded post, but I just found everything we learned sooo interesting, I had to share! It was well-worth the $200/hour to talk to a prosessional who seemed to really care about our dog and help us formulate a plan

luv2laugh · Jan 16, 2012

Thanks so much for all the updates. I never saw your initial post, but just read through the thread now and it is very informative. Gus is very lucky to have you as his adopted family. Dr. Ha sounds wonderful.

If he thinks you need to show authority a little more, something we've done with Oso (to practice stay and because we read it somewhere) is to always have him sit/stay for his water and also when we come in the door or out (depending on which way he wants to go). We have him sit, then I or my husband walks in and when we say, "ok" he can come. We do that before going to the dog park too. We are at the point where it still may take him a couple times at the dog park, but we still follow through. Figure it can't hurt. Also, Oso has to work for toys, pretty much anything. It's very simple and doesn't take a lot of time. I have a high pitched voice and was worried about commanding authority, so we've worked this into our routine and it helps with the authority part. Oso

Keep us updated. I wish the best for Gus and your family. I wonder if you played a video of kids playing or their voices in the background while he is happy eating or relaxing, if that would be a good very easy first step to introducing. If you do "hire" the boys to work with him you could introduce their voices consistently and in a safe manner and then their smells (like if they gave you a pillo yw case or dirty sock or something) so they are more familiar. That's a lot of work and may be unneccesary. Just throwing out ideas.

Ozkar · Jan 17, 2012

jjohnson said:
Thank you, Merry Christmas to you too!

I agree that the breeder should not have bred a shy dog. I wish I had known. We paid over $1,000 for this show-quality dog because I knew that shyness was penalized in the breed, so I figured if I got a show-quality dog I would be okay. Guess that's what we get for not meeting the mom first!

Hey it's all 20/20 hindsight isn't it. But, I bet London to a brick, you wouldn't trade Gus in!!

Great to hear you have taken the bull by the horns and enlisted some assistance. Judging by your last post, you are on the right path to helping Gus. Best of luck with him and keep us updated as he progresses, as I am sure he will.

redbirddog · Jan 17, 2012

Glad you took the bull by the horns and went out and got some help. Gus is a lucky dog to have you as his owners.

Gus may always be a bit fearful, but knowing that gives you the tool to control his environment. You'll need to read his fear signals.

Here is an interesting post a friend sent me.

http://www.canis.no/rugaas/onearticle.php?artid=1

Keep checking in as Gus grows into a great Vizsla.

RBD

jjohnson · Jan 17, 2012

No, even with all his weirdness, we would never trade Gus in! He sleeps right between us in bed with his head on my pillow and his legs in the air

I just wish everybody could enjoy how sweet he is, although it does make us feel kind of special that he only likes us

jjohnson · Jul 6, 2012

Okay, I felt like giving an update on Gus and venting some of my frustrations as he gets older ( a little over 1 year old now). It's hard to find people who understand how upsetting having a fearful/aggressive dog can be.

Gus has made some progress dealing with strangers on walks and in public. He might even pass for a "normal" dog, as long as nobody tries to approach him or pet him. He walks great on a leash, has nearly 100% recall while off-leash, and he will ignore joggers/ passers-by/other dogs. I think this has improved because he's become comfortable in our neighborhood and we are able to control on-leash situations very well and work on our counter-conditioning methods.

However, his fear and his aggression are intensifying in our house. I think he is becoming not only fearful, but intensely protective of our home and yard. Working on our training with this is very hard because it is really hard to control the situations. My brother (who was living with us) recently walked into the house unannounced with a new girlfriend. Gus was asleep on the couch and completely LOST IT when he discovered a stranger in his living room. And this time, not only did he bark and growl aggressively, but he actually charged at her and lunged at her. Poor girl was terrified, and I had a really hard time controlling the situation because I had no idea it was coming!

All in all, his behaviors (epsecially at home) are becoming more neurotic and sometimes unpredictable. He is now rarely ever warming up to new people. He STILL won't let my in-laws touch him (he's seen them a few times a month for his whole life). It's becoming more and more clear to me that his behavior is mostly the result of his personality and genetics - it's hard to explain but when he goes into these tirades, I can hold a steak in front of his face and he will pay no attention to me.

I was recently researching other methods to deal with this (i.e.-finding a muzzle so that I can have peace of mind that he won't bit somebody) and came across the Leeburg site. His article on "fear aggressivenes" in dogs seemed to describe Gus perfectly, but I DO NOT like the ending:

"We have all heard the term "fear biter." These types of dogs want nothing to do with strange people or strange places. They learn that if a stranger tries to approach and they show a little tooth and growl the stranger will back away and leave them alone. This behavior manifests itself into a dog that will try and bite someone it doesn't know the minute that person turns its back on them. Fear biters prefer to bite from the rear as this presents much less of a threat to them than a frontal attack. So a fear biter is a learned response from a dog with very bad nerves.

Fear biters are almost always dogs that have weak temperaments and poor nerves. They are a product of bad breeding. Many people mistakenly confuse fear biters as dogs that have been abused at an early age. How often have you heard someone say "I got my dog from the shelter and it was really abused by someone before I got it. That's why it acts the way that is does."? The fact is that most of these dogs ended up in the pound or shelter because of the bad temperament they had to begin with. They were not made shy, they were born shy....

The bottom line is that some dogs are so poorly bred that no amount of training or socializing is going to overcome the fears and ghosts in their heads. It's my opinion that these dogs should be put to sleep and the owner should make a bigger effort to pick a pup from sound parents the next time they get a dog."

I am obviously not going to put my dog down. But I understand the reasoning for his opinion, and one of my biggest fears is that if Gus ever got out of the yard or something and ended up in a shleter he would be put down immediately. Sorry for the long post - just feeling the need to vent and/or solicit support! We love this stupid dog so much and just want him to live a somewhat normal dog life.

redbirddog · Jul 6, 2012

"The bottom line is that some dogs are so poorly bred that no amount of training or socializing is going to overcome the fears and ghosts in their heads. It's my opinion that these dogs should be put to sleep and the owner should make a bigger effort to pick a pup from sound parents the next time they get a dog."

A neurotic dog is a challenge. Tough call for you. My friends in rescue sometimes do have to put down a dog because there is not a safe place for them in our society. Kay Ingle, who runs Vizsla Rescue Haven, takes in the tough cases. It breaks her heart every time she has to put one down.

The "ghosts in their heads" can make them dangerous.

I'd support you in whatever choice you made, even the hardest one. :'( There are well bred dogs out there looking for a caring person like you.

RBD

harrigab · Jul 6, 2012

redbirddog said:
"The bottom line is that some dogs are so poorly bred that no amount of training or socializing is going to overcome the fears and ghosts in their heads. It's my opinion that these dogs should be put to sleep and the owner should make a bigger effort to pick a pup from sound parents the next time they get a dog."

Click to expand...

A neurotic dog is a challenge. Tough call for you. My friends in rescue sometimes do have to put down a dog because there is not a safe place for them in our society. Kay Ingle, who runs Vizsla Rescue Haven, takes in the tough cases. It breaks her heart every time she has to put on down.

The "ghosts in their heads" can make them dangerous.

I'd support you in whatever choice you made, even the hardest one. :'( There are well bred dogs out there looking for a caring person like you.

RBD

as would I.

threefsh · Jul 6, 2012

*hugs* jjohnson - I can relate to what you are dealing with, but on a different level. We had a neurotic cat that would attack people. I have a 3 inch scar on my knee from one of these attacks. We were lucky that our heating/AC guy fell in love with him and took him up to the Santa Cruz mountains to live out his life as a "wild" outdoor cat. I think that's really the best option for these types. They are happiest when they have lots of room to roam and play without worrying about other people or animals. My advice (as hard as it would be) is to find someone with a farm or a lot of land where he could run free. At some point, there is bound to be someone who gets hurt from an attack. I'm lucky I was fast enough to only get scratched from the cat attack - cat bites can be very dangerous. Likewise, Vizslas have very powerful jaws and I worry that keeping him in your home could result in some serious injuries.

Just my 2 cents from personal experience - I know you will make the right decision, whatever that may be. You truly care for Gus, and that's what really matters. <3

texasred · Jul 6, 2012

So sorry this has to be heart breaking for you.

My personal opinion
I wouldn't send a dog with this problem to a new home or shelter. The dog would only be scared until put down.
Not much of a life for him. I would keep him, or find a vet to come to the house and put him down.

Put a sign on your front door Beware of Dog, Aggressive Fear Biter. It reminds anyone that forgets. Keep the door locked so no one can just walk in. I would keep the dog leashed to me anytime I had someone over. If kids or a large group of people were over I would put the dog in an outdoor kennel. Concrete floors, top on it and a lock on the gate.

hotmischief · Jul 6, 2012

jj - I truly commend you for your efforts and love for this troubled dog - you could not have done more for him. Your honesty is also refreshing and your dogs saving grace.

However, I wonder how long you and your family can continue with such behaviour. You have been so honest about the dog's behaviour, but I can't help thinking that your post is because you are concerned that you are sitting on a time bomb waiting for an accident to happen.

Gus has been very lucky to have such an understanding owner. I feel sure that you will continue to try and help him and provide him with a safe and secure enviroment, but at the same time you are honest enough to make that big decision should you feel it is necessary.

You have my support and admiration and I wish you and Gus the very best of luck.

jjohnson · Jul 6, 2012

Thanks everyone! At this point, I want to make it clear, we are not considering giving him away, and defintely not putting him down! Like I said, outside of our house he is much more managable and although fearful, he is less outwardly aggressive. We are able to find sparsley-populated areas to let him run off-leash, and on a leash, he does fine. In fact, we have taken him camping and to stay at hotels, and he does reasonablly well.

I do, however, feel like we have a ticking time bomb to some extent, while in our house. My husband doesn't seem too concerned, but my grandparents had an aggressive dog when I was a kid and I know what a liability it is- both legally and otherwise. He has NOT bitten anyone yet, but he has snapped, and he is just a year old. My focus is shifting to getting him to be calm outside or in his crate when other people are at the house. I also have been putting him on his leash when/if someone comes over. (This allows me to control him, but doesn't stop the loud, aggressive, incessent barking). There are also muzzles, and long-term medication, which may or may not help. We have tried the short term medication, and it doesn't seem to help much.

If it gets to the point where we really can't handle him, the breeder has a contract that says he will take the dog back for any reason. They live in a rural area, and I am sure Gus would always having a loving home there too, so that is good!

texasred · Jul 6, 2012

You could try a combination of Leerburg/ Cesar with him on how they controll aggression to keep other people safe around him. Not the same as a fear biter but it might give you some control over him.

Fear agression in new puppy

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