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Discussion Starter #1
Since the last topic on this was two years ago, I thought that I would post here to go over information that may have changed. Please advise because to a beginner raw seemso daunting. Also how do we keep our Vizslas puppyhood quiet before and after feeding to avoid bloat? What about slow feeder bowls as well. Anything you can say will be appreciated. Thanks. :D
 

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My Vizsla puppy Mia is 6 months old and I've been feeding her raw since the day I brought her home at 7 weeks. Variety and balance over time are key. Not every meal needs to include everything she needs to be healthy, but on average she should be getting sufficient amounts of liver (5%), kidney or other organs (5%), and bone (10% - I've seen recommendations to feed 50% raw meaty bones to approximately achieve this, and that's about what I do). I started Mia with raw chicken thighs, then we graduated to other chicken parts, turkey necks, pork (boneless), beef (boneless), chicken and beef liver, beef kidney (I can't find anything else), and beef heart. I try to feed her fish occasionally, too, although it's canned. I'd like to feed her an even more varied diet, but it's hard to find affordable options where I live. Raw Paws seems to have some good deals on some things, and I may try that for adding variety.

She seems to really love her food and as a puppy mealtimes could be up to 30 minutes long, as she crunched through a turkey neck or chicken leg. Now she works through her meals in 10 minutes or less, but I still think the chewing is really good for her muscle tone and dental health, as well as giving her some mental stimulation. She's very healthy, her coat looks amazing and she has no allergies at all.

I feed mostly raw prey model, but I do cut up some things into small pieces so I can feed her using puzzle toys. The Nina Ottoson ones are easy to clean and she seems to be really engaged with them. And I feed her yogurt, cheese, eggs, peanut butter, mashed bananas, cottage cheese, and other fruits or veggies in Kong toys. She likes them and they keep her busy when she's alone.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Any pictures of your pup? It sounds like a well thought out regimen and that your Vizsla is relaxed avoiding bloat. Thank yo.
 

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Like Nymeria I feed my Vizsla, Chester, who will turn 2 on April 11 a raw diet that conforms to the Prey Model Raw diet ratios, and have done so from the first day we got him at 8 weeks.

I had high hopes (along with a few trepidations making an unconventional choice) but raw feeding has surpassed my highest expectations. Chester is spectacular.

Chester is very lean, yet very well-muscled (rippling out more with each passing day). His energy levels are phenomenal, yet he has no "hyper-activity" of the negative kind. His coat feels like soft velvet, different than litter-mates and half-sibilings we see on occasion.

The teeth are sparkling white, with no tartar, due (I believe) both to eating soft-edible bones on a daily basis, and to not eating carbohydrates/starches/sugars, which rot teeth. Likewise the breath is fresh, and eyes are clear. The picture of health, stamina, and vitality IMO.

I could not be more happy with the results. I'd never willingly go back to feeding kibble (as I did with previous dogs), and feel some guilt I didn't understand what I now know in earlier year, but need to let that go.

A PMR (prey model raw) diet is not especially daunting. There is no grinding of meats and bones, nor any cooking or processing of vegetables.

The diet is based around meeting a dog's nutritional need by providing meals from a variety of different animals in the approximate ratios of 80% meat, 10% bone, and 10% organs (half of that, or 5% of the total diet, being liver, the other half being organs like kidneys, sweetbreads, spleen/melts, gonads, or brains. Heart in PMR is counted as "meat."

The 80/10/10 formula is a little simplistic. "Meat" includes fat, muscle, connective tissues, fur/skin, and basically everything else that is not bones or a secreting organ.

To maximize nutrition, most PMR feeders attempt to feed as wide a variety of animals as local conditions and economic considerations allow.

PRM feeders generally serve bones that are soft and can be eaten (and digested) entirely, such as bone-in raw chicken pieces like thighs, drumsticks, and quarters. Never cooked bone, which can splinter. PRM feeds generally avoid the hard dense bones (like femur bones from cattle) that are the bones typically sold as "dog bones" as they can crack teeth.

Many PMR feeders seek to "balance over time," meaning bone, organ, and meat ratios may not be met in each day's meal, but would be over a period like a week. Unlike many, I do attempt to balance nearly all meals to PMR ratios, while diversifying protein sources over time. I feel serving roughly 10% bone at every meal minimizes any GI distress that might come for with too much bone (which can be constipating) or no bone, which can lead to loose stools. Organs are absolutely necessary in the diet, but too much in one meals can also cause loose stools. So I serve approximately 10% organs at each meal, with liver being served every other day, with kidney and other organs on the alternative days. Feeding balanced daily meals makes it easier for me to stay on track. Many others prefer the balance over time approach. Either work.

Most people start with bone-in chicken (exclusively) to start, doing "one protein" to make sure the dog has no issues. Chicken pieces tend tone bone heavy (one needs to become aware of the percentages of bone in common parts) which, if not to excessive, is OK to start as it reduces odd of loose stools. I think a better strategy is to remove some or all of the skin in the first days, for while that fat in the skin is very vital (save any that is removed for later feeding) it takes time for some dogs to be conditioned to fat burning and digestion.

After chicken proves fine (a weeks or so of good stools) people add new proteins one at at time.

I think it is wise to start feeding organs (like chicken liver during the chicken introduction period) early. This gets dogs accustomed to eating organs (avoiding aversions) and gets the vital vitamins and minerals to the dogs from the start. There are those who suggest waiting on organs until a dog is fully transitioned to a full compliment of proteins before starting organs, for fear of loose stools. Better IMO to just start with very small pieces of organ and work up.

Having a freezer and taking advantage of buying in bulk or buying on sale items is almost mandatory. I pack my meats and organs into portions that I can mix and match to make meals (with typically 4 or 5 "portions" in a days meal).

I now feed many items straight from the freezer, rather than thawed, which is not only easier, with fewer cross contamination risks, but it increases (now slightly) the amount of chew time my Vizsla (who now has incredibly powerful jeans and neck muscles) needs to consume meals. As a pup thawed chicken was a workout. Now he can destroy a chicken quarter in seconds.

If once accepts that the PMR ratios are sound, the rest is fairly easy. I'm not one to accept such things without verifying the evidence myself, so spent inordinate amounts of time reading works by the National Research Council, every study I could find on canine performance and diet, did analysis of sample meals of nutrients, etc. After a lot of work, I'm convinced the PRM ratios are spot on nutritionally.

The one supplement most PRM feeders do use is fish oil, to compensate for reduced Omega 3s in conventionally raised meats. I feed oily fish like mackerel, sardines, and anchovies for the same reason.

Plenty more that could be discussed, but that's a start.

Bill
 

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I see all those benefits in Mia too. No doggie breath, lean and very toned, clear eyes and a beautiful coat. I'm really pleased.

I try to balance over a week or so. She eats about 1.5 lbs a day, or 10.5 lbs a week. I package liver and kidney into 0.5 lb packages and feed her that in puzzle toys all week. About half her meals are raw meaty bones and I make up the remaining weight with muscle meats.

I definitely had loose stool when I first introduced organs, and I think that's because I started with too much. Once I started feeding smaller amounts more frequently (like Bill suggests) that went away.

It's way less time consuming than I thought to feed this way. I break down meat into 2 serving packages as soon as I get home and prep small pieces of liver and kidney for puzzle toys at the beginning of the week and I'm good to go. Plus, eating this way tires her out. I recently discovered that feeding her still frozen pieces was ok and would take a lot longer, like bills dogs, so I do that a lot.

One funny thing she does is she won't touch her food with her paws. She will move her paws out of the way of it happens by accident. So funny.

Ill post some pics tomorrow when I'm not on tablet.
 

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cuddlebuglove said:
Any pictures of your pup? It sounds like a well thought out regimen and that your Vizsla is relaxed avoiding bloat. Thank yo.
I lost my first dog, a gloriously beautiful Irish Setter that we got when I was 11. I was the one that trained him, developing a deep interest in humane methods from that time forward, and my mother at 46 started running Marathons (breaking the existing women's age group world's records for best times for very many successive years) in large measure to keep Kelly well-excerised. They were great running partners. He was super-fit. At 7, when I was away for my first semester in college, Kelly ate a meals of kibble and I assume drank a bunch of water, the kibble swelled, he bloated and died.

I had limited understanding of canine nutrition at that time, but the risk of kibble and bloat (GVD) was a painful life-lesson learned the hard way.

One of the things I notice on the raw diet is that I can't tell by looking at him that Chester has eaten. You know Vizslas can't hide anything with their short fur (especially on their bellies). Past dogs fed kibble always "showed" after eating. There was a little swelling of the paunch one gets used to as "normal" and sometimes a little passed gas that goes along with digestion. This slight swelling of the belly doesn't happen on raw, nor does Chester pass gas they way my kibble fed dogs typically would.

Bloating (GVD) is not something I've ever head of happening with raw fed dogs. The meals are rich in moisture, don't swell in the stomach, and don't ferment and produce gas the way that cereal-based dry processed foods do.

With a raw diet dogs in late-puppyhood and adulthood can eat one-meal-a-day with no problem. Fats, unlike carbs, provide a very steady supply of energy and stable blood sugars (so no need to run the dogs on full stomachs, which is a bloat risk), and eating one full meal is not risky on raw, where it can be with kibble.

Among many other considerations, I'm pleased a PMR diet is reducing the risk of GVD to the minimum, while also providing optimal nutrition and energy to my Vizsla.

Bill
 

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Our HWV Bod's doing fabulously on the RAW food diet since last week,Tuesday, when I started him on it, he now weighs 8,2kg, will be 10 weeks old on Sunday and he was on Arden Grange when we bought him 2 weeks ago, but pooing lots and I really wanted to get going with RAW foods. He's had chicken & bone mince from Landywoods - I was only feeding a 1 lb portion daily (into 4 feeds) adding 2 chicken wings at some point as well. I've also added a raw egg, some coconut oil just the one time to see if he'd eat it! We're buying a new chest freezer today! Then I can buy some tripe and stock the other stuff he'll need.

I have a question for I know you're supposed to feed according to weight, ie, up to 10% of body weight while very young but the protein stated on the Landywoods chicken & bone mince says

"Protein 17, Moisture 17, Oil 11, Ash 4"

surely that's not enough protein for young growing puppy?!

It's amazed me how little he is drinking, so I've sometimes added some extra water into the meat. But he obviously doesn't need as much and the poohs are few and far between!
 

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Landywood's site says the chicken and bone mince is approximately 20% bone. Generally 10% bone is the recommended amount and if you added in some boneless meats and offal this would lower the bone percentage and increase the amount of protein. Once you start adding in the chicken wings, you'll definitely want to decrease the amount of bone-in mince he's getting or you'll have a constipated boy on your hands! :)

Don't be surprised if he's not drinking as much water now. Since he gets a lot of moisture from the raw meat, he won't drink as much. Perfectly normal.
 

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JoBod said:
Our HWV Bod's doing fabulously on the RAW food diet since last week,Tuesday, when I started him on it, he now weighs 8,2kg, will be 10 weeks old on Sunday and he was on Arden Grange when we bought him 2 weeks ago, but pooing lots and I really wanted to get going with RAW foods. He's had chicken & bone mince from Landywoods - I was only feeding a 1 lb portion daily (into 4 feeds) adding 2 chicken wings at some point as well. I've also added a raw egg, some coconut oil just the one time to see if he'd eat it! We're buying a new chest freezer today! Then I can buy some tripe and stock the other stuff he'll need.

I have a question for I know you're supposed to feed according to weight, ie, up to 10% of body weight while very young but the protein stated on the Landywoods chicken & bone mince says

"Protein 17, Moisture 17, Oil 11, Ash 4"

surely that's not enough protein for young growing puppy?!

It's amazed me how little he is drinking, so I've sometimes added some extra water into the meat. But he obviously doesn't need as much and the poohs are few and far between!
The labeling on an packaged raw product might it appear lower in protein (compared to a kibble) if one doesn't account for the moisture in food served in its natural state vs dried process food. The moisture counts towards total percentages. It is the reason your pup appears less thirsty. Always insure a supply of fresh water.

The bone composition of the mince is 20%. The ideal PRM target (one that conforms with the 1.2:1 Calcium to Phosphorus ratio recognized as ideal) is 10% bone. Many raw feeder start a little high (like 20%) to start to help keep stools firm, but it is not an optimal long range bone ratio. If you are adding chicken wing, which are very boney, you are driving up the bone percentages even more. It is very good for a puppy to chew bone vs eating it pre-ground in a mince/grind, but I would compensate by adding some boneless chicken to move the meat to bone ratios more towards the 80/10 ratio, keeping an eye on stools.

Since you are on chicken, I'd slowly start adding chicken liver to the mix, both for the nutritional support (organs are essential to a raw diet) and to get your WHV used to organs early and avoiding food aversions. Since organs are rich and can cause loose stools if overfed, aim for introducing very small pieces and working up. Frequent feedings of small amounts of organ are better than less frequent larger feeding for minimizing loose stools.

Feed according to condition, not by a set formula. If the pup looks too lean and acts starved, feed more. If it is getting plump, cut back. Vizsla pups should not look corpulent. It is in their interest to keep them healthfully lean.

A chest freeze with help a great deal. I'd move towards whole pieces (as opposed to pre-ground minces) as much as practical. You would not only find it more economical, but gnashing and chewing on soft-edible bone is very good for puppies and dogs, keeping teeth clean and building muscles (while relaxing their minds).

When Bod is solid with chicken for a week or so, you could start adding a second protein to the mix. Alway add one at a time to make sure there are no issues, after a week or so, add another. Diversity of protein sources is good.

As you add other proteins, also add organs from those animals (whenever practical) and at least add liver, kidney and other organs from at least one "red meat" source.

It is a process one needs to get used to, but one that becomes second nature over time. And so worth it!

Bill
 

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Discussion Starter #10
The responsesmart have been excellent to the point of extraordinary. I am so glad that the concerns about bloat are far less.

Thank you for taking the time to answer; if more pictures can be shared, please do so.

My living situation doesn't permit a Vizsla at this time, but reading about the best ways to care for them and other dogs as well is great.
 

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As a side note, I was curious about the cost of Landywood's, and (after doing the math) was very impressed.

It runs 13 BP for 9 kilos (approximately 20 lbs), which works out to a cost in USD of under a dollar (92 cents) per pound.

In the USA fresh whole chicken prices are highly variable. One could easily pay over a dollar a pound in higher-end markets, to 69 cents (regular price) in value oriented markets, to 49 cent super sales, and I've even stocked up at the rare 29 cent loss-leader sales.

But when ground for raw feeding, suppliers here generally have prices that make it a boutique food (for which one pays through the nose).

I'm impressed (from afar) that Landywood's seems to have very fair pricing. Not sure what you in the UK pay for fresh chicken, but....

Bill
 

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cuddlebuglove,

I put together an album with some photos and videos of Scout's meals to give you an idea of what it's like. Usually when I've filmed her it's because the meal was unusual to some degree, so these aren't necessarily our daily meal routine. I enjoy watching her eat and you can see how physical it can be when you feed large cuts as well as how just by eating they massage their gums, floss the front teeth, and scrape away plaque in the rear. It's very mentally satisfying for them to gnaw away on something for an hour.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/albums/72157666819666801
 

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Bod our puppy is now 11 weeks old and doing fabulously on his RAW diet, I'm finding it incredibly easier to manage than I thought it was going to be. I have a pair of Marigolds for handling the mince tripe (frozen but still stinks, won't buy the mince again) and a chest freezer holding food just for himself! I'm about to start feeding my mini schnauzer (11yrs) RAW diet as well now as she can't understand her meagre portions of kibble. Her teeth have become amazingly cleaner since the calf bones they've been sharing once a week too.

I've stopped worrying about the exact amounts after tying myself up in knots figuring out percentages of liver, offal etc Maths being my worst subject...and now can report Bod has had no tummy upset or loose squits or constipation either. I've stopped weighing him after the vet declared him fabulous at his last vaccination last week.

He's had from Landywood's their beef liver chunk,
kidney chunk,
tripe chunk (looks like a piece of whale blubber with a carpet rolled up inside???)
solid beef chunks,
chicken&bone mince,
minced Oily fish (Contains Salmon Red Sea Bream, Pilchards)

eggs (won't eat the shells, might just grind them up and add as powdered?) yoghurt,
dehydrated duck (chew/training treat),
and also tinned (in oil Mackerel, Pilchards, Sardines)
lamb rack of ribs (only in 4 piece, takes a while...usually over 2 days)
I've run out of the chicken wings and now on the search to buy more carcasses to freeze, might source a local butcher!

Oh and a carrot he stole from the bunny - who's deaf.

Does anyone ever pick up roadkill? I'm thinking rabbit, pheasant, fluff and all. I'm just not sure how to check how long it's been there...obviously if it's just freshly been killed that's fine but how would I know if it's gone past it's eat by date?

Sadly I'm thinking our new puppy is eating a better diet than us :) His coat is fabulous!

Thank you to all who take the time to put advice on this whole forum, much appreciated :)
 

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Good for you! It's strangely exciting add in new proteins and your tripe description is right on point, haha. One of the raw food companies here has llama available which I would love to feed one day.

So I haven't shared this here yet for fear of having my sanity questioned, but one time I did feed roadkill. It was a colder night and on my way back from a friend's house around midnight or so, I saw a doe on the side the road that I knew for certain had not been there earlier. As a perfectly sane person I went home and grabbed some plastic sheeting from the garage, lined my trunk, and then went back out and attempted to move the deer into my trunk. It was quite difficult for little 5'4" me, but I managed. I then set up some more plastic sheeting in our garage, gathered a variety of instruments, and looked up youtube videos on how to butcher the animal before me. I'd never done this before mind you. Scout ate for free for a few months which is totally worth all my friends and family thinking I'm insane.

Now I would caution you here to use good sense. Your pup's immune system is still developing, so I'd wait until he's older to even consider it and then to freeze roadkill for 30 days prior to feeding.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Will be checking out links soon. It's great that your Vizslas and other dogs even seniors respond so well to the raw diet.
 

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Ha ha Courtney, that meat was probably better for her than anything you would buy at the store.
Although in Texas it would be illegal to pickup the deer without a game wardens permission.
Just guessing but I believe the law is due to people that would purposely hit them.
 

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TexasRed said:
Ha ha Courtney, that meat was probably better for her than anything you would buy at the store.
Although in Texas it would be illegal to pickup the deer without a game wardens permission.
Just guessing but I believe the law is due to people that would purposely hit them.
Yeah it was probably was illegal. I did attempt to call the local police to get permission first, but as it was very late I couldn't reach anyone. I thought it was better not to let it go to waste!
 

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Sooooo, a lovely neighbour has put a partridge on my doorstep this morning after our chat about how well puppy is looking on raw food and me thinking about roadkill...

He's 12weeks +2 days old now. Been fed raw for 3 weeks just over, so do I freeze this partridge whole or do I have to gut it or something? Sorry, I have no idea other than letting him 'play' with it in the garden and hope he makes the connection when he's hungry.
 
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