[Poppy'sHooman]

Long time, no chat! I haven't been on in a while after checking-in quite regularly for our first 4 months home with Poppy. She is now 8 months and thriving, that 6 month turn around and the months of consistency before that really made a difference, and my partner and Poppy and I finally managed to find a bit of a rhythm in our day to day. She is not perfect, but her behaviour has gotten a lot more manageable. And huge thank you to all the help I got here during that time period!!!

However, one area where we have not made an smidge of progress in months is home alone training. We have been stuck at 2 hrs since she was 4-5 months, after which she howls and makes a huge fuss, and the way our lease is written we can be kicked out of our apartment for having a problem dog, so we are kind of afraid of our neighbours, one of which (anonymously) already complained when we initially started day time crate training back in the summer. I will write out my query here so if you don't want to read all the specifics you can stop here. For home alone time, how do you decide if they should be in a crate Vs a gated off space in the house? Or when did you switch from one to the other and how did you make that transition?

Here are the details: she has been crated at night since day 1, with day time naps happening in the crate by the 10/11 week mark. Despite all of the fun crate games and hiding treats in there for her to find and all the other ideas I have read here and elsewhere, the crate has always just been something she tolerates.. to a point. It has never become her cozy den, she does not seek it out for her own naps or for space, she is a couch girl through and through (and she does have couch rules/boundaries etc). She has only ever been left home in the crate, to this max 2hrs, which has severely limited my ability to pick up more work. At a certain point I realized I was not doing enough separation time with her when I was home, ex if she was up I was occupying her time, so for the past couple months that has been a priority, where I use a baby gate for some space and we do our own thing and we have noticed a lot of improvement in her ability to self-settle. So during this time not all of her day time naps have been in the cratez but still randomizing it so it's not always associated with when I leave. She is always well exercised and due for a nap before her crate time (I literally plan our while day around when I need to leave and she needs to go down). But her tolerance really seems to be when she wakes up at the 2hr mark.

Our plan, based on a trainer we follow, has always been to wait until the 1/1.5 year mark to let her be free when not home but I just don't know if I'm going to make it. Financially, I need to pick up more work and to leave the house for 3-4hrs at a time. If I could go back and start over I would do things differently but we are where we are on this one. There is a spare room where she could be closed off and do little damage, but the full wall window would be very visible and audible to neighbours walking by. She has never been destructive, I have only recently started surgery on stuffies she has had since day 1. We have a new pet camera that we can speak to her but I would only be able to check it hourly. I guess I am just not sure if it will actually help to increase her time alone? Should I just go for it? I feel like I'm talking myself into it but I don't know what's holding me back.

 

[Sophie01]

Oh boy, you have the wrong breed for your circumstances. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Vizslas are velcro dogs. They want to be with you (heck, on top of you!) most of the time. If you got your V from a good, reputable breeder, see if they will take her back. That dog and you are going to be miserable together. You both need a better fit.

 

[gunnr]

You have a tough situation, not because of Poppy, but due to your apartment contract.
There is no date at which a Vizsla should be given the run of the house. Finn is 3 1/2 years old now and is still crated whenever we are not home. It’s not that he’s destructive, it’s just not necessary.
When we’re home, he’s out, and free to choose whether or not to go in his crate. Usually he wants in there at night, with the cover over the front door of the crate.
Why do I keep him crated while away? Finn is very energetic, and would just roam the house, and possibly find something to eat, or play with, that he shouldn’t. Finn is safer in the crate. I have been this way with all my V’s through the years.
I have also had issues with howling and barking when left alone, but we’re in our own house, so we had no neighbors to deal with. For me it was lack of sleep I needed to resolve. I used a bark collar for that situation. The dog barks, it gets corrected immediately. It takes less than a day to modify the behavior. A bark collar may not be legal where you’re at though???
Start putting Poppy back in that crate while you’re home. She starts howling and throwing a fit, correct her. I used to shake the crate, and give a very stern “NO”!!!!!!!
Dogs don’t need to have free roaming of the house to be happy. It may take years before you trust a dog enough to be alone, unsupervised, in the house.

 

[Poppy'sHooman]

You have a tough situation, not because of Poppy, but due to your apartment contract.
There is no date at which a Vizsla should be given the run of the house. Finn is 3 1/2 years old now and is still crated whenever we are not home. It’s not that he’s destructive, it’s just not necessary.
When we’re home, he’s out, and free to choose whether or not to go in his crate. Usually he wants in there at night, with the cover over the front door of the crate.
Why do I keep him crated while away? Finn is very energetic, and would just roam the house, and possibly find something to eat, or play with, that he shouldn’t. Finn is safer in the crate. I have been this way with all my V’s through the years.
I have also had issues with howling and barking when left alone, but we’re in our own house, so we had no neighbors to deal with. For me it was lack of sleep I needed to resolve. I used a bark collar for that situation. The dog barks, it gets corrected immediately. It takes less than a day to modify the behavior. A bark collar may not be legal where you’re at though???
Start putting Poppy back in that crate while you’re home. She starts howling and throwing a fit, correct her. I used to shake the crate, and give a very stern “NO”!!!!!!!
Dogs don’t need to have free roaming of the house to be happy. It may take years before you trust a dog enough to be alone, unsupervised, in the house.

This is helpful and reassuring. The safety thing is generally what we had believed and heard from the trainer and why it was part of the original plan. I'm not sure about the bark collar for our location, something to look into. But I can definitely get back to challenging the 2hr window when we are home and see if I can make some more progress. I've also thought about getting her some new chew toys that are ones she only ever gets in the crate and not ones we play with her, those ones she struggles to self-play with as she definitely thinks it's more fun to play with us. I think I see other dogs we train with working on home alone training and being free and just found myself wondering if that would make her more comfortable. But I also could see her pacing looking for something to get into. Thank you for your advice!

 

[Poppy'sHooman]

Oh boy, you have the wrong breed for your circumstances. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Vizslas are velcro dogs. They want to be with you (heck, on top of you!) most of the time. If you got your V from a good, reputable breeder, see if they will take her back. That dog and you are going to be miserable together. You both need a better fit.

Suggesting that someone should re-home their dog because they would like a well-adjusted dog who is able to self-occupy for 3-4 hrs a day is wildly unhelpful and absolutely boggles the mind. Accepting a velcro level of attachment is not the same thing as deciding that separation anxiety is just par for the course, something I've had great discussions about with other owners on this forum. I'd like her to OCCASIONALLY be able to manage being home alone for 3-4 hrs, not so I can leave for some 9-5 job. Which is something that also comes in handy for things like emergencies, hospital visits, attending funerals and other life situations that arise where you cannot take your dog. I am absolutely not looking to re-home my dog, I'd like to pick up a couple extra shifts at my very chill job outside of the 99% of my time I currently spend with her so that I can pay for some more fun training courses for us to do together. I asked a specific question about crating versus being free in the house, not whether or not I had the right breed. I very knowingly got a velcro dog and love the connection we have.

 

[texasred]

Oh boy, you have the wrong breed for your circumstances. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Vizslas are velcro dogs. They want to be with you (heck, on top of you!) most of the time. If you got your V from a good, reputable breeder, see if they will take her back. That dog and you are going to be miserable together. You both need a better fit.

The OP stated the pup is thriving. Not uncommon for puppy owners to ask questions on crating. This forum is based off positive reinforcement, to actually help owners help their pups adjust.
Negative reinforcement is not the the first go to with this breed, or this forum.

 

[gunnr]

Poppy'sHooman

She'll get it, I promise, it just takes time.
Vizslas that are trialed and hunted spend lots of time in crates. It's not an unrealistic expectation that when they are in the crates, they're quiet, and patiently, well maybe impatiently, waiting, to be released. It's safer for them for so many different reasons.
I don't have a magic dog, or a magic crate training tip, My dog is no better, or worse, that anyone else's dog on the forum. It's just the continuous re-enforcement of expectations, behaviors, and commands, that start at 8 weeks old, and carries on into their adult lives. I'm absolutely certain that if you were to poll the folks that do trial and hunt their dogs, they will echo the same sentiment.
Everyone wants their dog to be "out of the crate", and free to roam the house when they're not home, and I get that, but my question has always been, why?
Poppy is going to get it, I promise. She's of an age now that the expectations for her behaviors should be higher. She is capable of much more than you know.

 

[Dan_A]

Echo all the helpful advice here and to say to keep at it. I think your real challenge is the stress of poppy causing some kind of issue with the apartment noise ordinances. Otherwise 3-4hrs is not unreasonable for a dog including V's to be crated. Of course providing that you give a proper balance of exercise and attention when out of the crate which i'm sure you do already. I also echo utilizing a bark collar. There are two types, one that will give warning beeps followed by progressive electrical stimulation until barking stops. The second type uses a spritz of a citronella type natural scent that is not pleasant to dogs. They both allow the dog to "be a dog" and bark for a bit, but not carry on about it. I would look into these to solve the excessive barking issue. I would train with it by putting poppy in non-crate situations where she may typically carry on barking (if you have any). I wouldn't want her first experience with the collar to be in the crate as she may associate that unpleasant experience with the crate instead of barking. Once she learns what the collar is reinforcing (that she may bark a bit but not carry on for long), then you are golden and ready to use it while crated if necessary.

 

[downsco41]

@Poppy'sHooman How is the extended crate training / separate room approach going? Our girl is 15 weeks old and we also live in an apartment where our upstairs neighbors have complained to building management already. I currently work from home so have been actively and very slowly trying to get her used to daytime crating (she's fine at night). I have also tried all of the things (crate games, special crate toys, special crate treats, letting her cry it out, clothing with our scent, Adaptil diffuser, testing out different rooms, etc). I'm up to 15 minutes of no crying when I leave the house and I have a long way to go! The thing that has helped me the most so far is the petcam app on my phone (Pet Monitor). I set up my ipad to see her crate and it alerts me on my phone and when i talk to her it seems to calm her down. I know you mentioned you're limited as to how often you can check yours. She still can only hold her bladder for so long so I don't plan to leave her for hours yet, but curious as to how you're progressing.

 

[Poppy'sHooman]

@Poppy'sHooman How is the extended crate training / separate room approach going? Our girl is 15 weeks old and we also live in an apartment where our upstairs neighbors have complained to building management already. I currently work from home so have been actively and very slowly trying to get her used to daytime crating (she's fine at night). I have also tried all of the things (crate games, special crate toys, special crate treats, letting her cry it out, clothing with our scent, Adaptil diffuser, testing out different rooms, etc). I'm up to 15 minutes of no crying when I leave the house and I have a long way to go! The thing that has helped me the most so far is the petcam app on my phone (Pet Monitor). I set up my ipad to see her crate and it alerts me on my phone and when i talk to her it seems to calm her down. I know you mentioned you're limited as to how often you can check yours. She still can only hold her bladder for so long so I don't plan to leave her for hours yet, but curious as to how you're progressing.

Hey! Sorry it took me some time to get back on here. It has actually been going SO well. I think I just needed to get over the hurdle in my own mind. We have also been spending so much time on encouraging her to settle on her own, having time where we are in separate rooms, and me kind of ignoring her (or at least not launching into a full play or snuggle session every time she is awake and comes over to me) the past couple months and I think that really has helped with the crating as well. The limit with the pet cam is that I'm a yoga teacher, so obviously can't check it while actively teaching a class. But if we are over those two hours and I'm teaching I just let my partner know it's his turn to keep an eye and that's worked. I think we had a couple times where it went past the 2 hr mark with no issue, though she seemed a little disgruntled with me afterwards for a few minutes, but I think that gave all 3 of us a bit of encouragement that, "actually, she's OK". I had an idea to get her a special chew that she only had access to during crate sessions, so we went with a fancy new piece of antler for that and I can hear her chewing on it over the cam when she wakes up. I've also been able to leave when she was awake in her crate (she always wakes up at the 1 hr mark) and watched on the cam while leaving the door and she paused her chewing for maybe 5 seconds max and then kept back at it and eventually fell back asleep. I am considering a special toy to go in there with her as well, but have to find something I trust her not to destroy and consume. We even went out for a friend's birthday last week and fully expected to have to leave early, but I think it helped that it was in the evening before bed and she basically just went to sleep and we were out for almost 5 hrs! We were beyond thrilled and excited to have this little bit of normalcy back in our lives.

I know Poppy was not capable of much separation at 15 weeks, especially because I had been home constantly with her and hadn't been focusing on separation, something I'll definitely start much earlier next time around. I think keep at it as much as you can, even little separation moments during the day while you work (not sure what your set up is, maybe you're already doing this - I hadn't really been). I also usually time when I leave around when she is already asleep, and we did get into a bit of a set schedule for a while to help solidify the "nap time" vs play/train/walk time. And we were enforcing 2hr sleeps at that age because I heard a behaviourist say they need it at that age (where previously I would let her up when she woke up after the first hour). Anyway, best of luck!!! Keep at it and it WILL get better with age and consistency.