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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello! Our puppy is just 4mo, we walk him at least twice daily, today, after dinner/walk, he was starting the "zombie" behavior again, as he usually do after dinner, but this time is really scaring me, because he is jumping at me, and howling aggressively, I was trying to use my hand to hold his mouth, but he is more aggressively biting my hand!! Until I pick up a wood stick and say "sit" loudly, he seems calm a bit, but still try to bite me; later, we go back into house, he peed on the floor... What's wrong with him? In the morning he is a nice boy, obedient and following instruction very well. We also read a lot and set up a leadership, but still confused about his evening "zombie" behavior, and the aggressive biting is kind of intolerant. I'm deeply worried about this!! Shall I schedule for a private training course for him? Is this normal for other puppies? Also, he is barking a lot!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Btw, he is not resource guarding; each meal, I will ask him to sit and stay, until I say "eat" he will eat. At night, he go straight to his crate for sleep. Never wake up during night. We always have a good sleep. Whatever, his other behaviors are wonderful~ I just don't understand about this evening crazy moment! Seems he is another dog, and he dosen't recognize me as his mom! SAD, HELP PLEASE!
 

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Uhmmm,,, I'm going to say that for four months old, you seem to be putting a lot of pressure on him.
I don't know how long you have been conditioning him in this manner, but I would back off on the intensity and let him be a puppy.
What does this sentence mean?
"We also read a lot and set up a leadership."
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Uhmmm,,, I'm going to say that for four months old, you seem to be putting a lot of pressure on him.
I don't know how long you have been conditioning him in this manner, but I would back off on the intensity and let him be a puppy.
What does this sentence mean?
"We also read a lot and set up a leadership."
Thank you for your reply! I mean, I read a lot of information about dog training, everyone says that the earlier the better, that's why I trained him in that way; I'm not fully understand the "pressure" I gave him, crate training, house training, etc. is to help him better live with us, right? If I just let him be a no-rule puppy, that will be miserable for my own life, I might have to clean every pee/poop behind him, tired with taking care of him but received with aggressive behaviors, that's definitely not sth I could afford.
 

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There is a big difference in puppy training, than adult dog training. Puppy training is short sessions, and they get lots of praise/treats for doing things correctly.

Grabbing his muzzle when he is in heavy play time, is likely just amping him up even more.
It's very common for Vizsla puppies to be very bitey when they are overtired. Most of them have a witching hour in the evening, where they act this way.

If I grabbed a stick and gave one of my dogs a command. They wouldn't give the stick a second thought, as they have never been corrected with one. Nor should a 4 month old puppy.
I think your expectations are to high for his age, and it's making your training style be to rough on him.
 

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Crescent

Pressure is a component of training. It has to be there as a foundation component for any desired behavioral response. Pressure is simply directing the puppy/dog to perform in a manner that is inconsistent with genetic imprinting. Pressure can be physically, mentally, and environmentally applied and released
Pressure is applied until the desired response is achieved, then it is removed. The moment the puppy/dog begins to respond, the pressure is released. It may be applied and reapplied multiple times during a training session. An example would be teaching the puppy/dog to come to you. You give the command, followed by a gentle tug on the leash cord. The very moment the puppy begins to come to you, you stop tugging, and in an animated manner, keep calling the puppy to you. It might get half way back and stray off, at which point the pressure is applied once again. What you don't want to do is once the puppy begins to come to you, you don't let the pressure off and reel them in like a fish. That's constant pressure and the puppy/dog never gets released. It learns nothing, and there is no long term modification of behavior.
Now then, let's be brutally honest about pressure No one gets it right 100% of the time. All of us make mistakes. All of us miss the point of release. It is something that both the handler and the dog will work on their entire life. After 30+ years with these dogs, I still screw it up sometimes. It seems like such a simple concept, but the timing, duration, and amount of pressure, are critical. Luckily, dogs have a very forgiving nature, and routinely make us look better than we should at times.
In your post you identified that the puppy was being held back at meals for a period of time, and then released. This is pressure. In an adult dog, this is desirable behavior, especially in multi dog household. A 4 month old puppy can be started on the process, but that is a lot of pressure early in a puppy's life.
Grabbing the puppy by the muzzle until he calms is another form of pressure. Unfortunately, he's to young to really understand what you're end goal objective is and is reacting out of instinct and fighting the restriction. You might want to try some positive redirection when this happens, like playing with a ball or stick. Redirect his focus from the behavior he is exhibiting.
What happens after the second walk in the evening? Is it something he doesn't want to do, is there something that routinely happens that is triggering him? He's trying to communicate with you, but there is now way for me to guess what he's trying to say.
Applying to much pressure, to early in a dogs life can cause any number of behavioral issues, and sometimes they don't come out for months, and then they do and it's hard to differentiate what is really happening. I almost ruined one of my dogs by applying to much pressure, to young.
They have to be allowed to be "puppies in training".
 

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Could be what I call the "zoomie/sharky" puppy mode activated to me. Ours occasionally did this usually in the early evening when we knew she was for certian tired from the day's activities. Pupils dilate, they shut out the world, and zoom around combined with sharky mode mouthing on us/clothing/pillows ,etc.

Perhaps after that evening walk he is just exhausted and doing something similar. We would walk away and not try to feed into this behavior. We would then look to distract by doing something low pressure like go chase the treat, throw a treat down the hall for her to get it, then she comes back and give the "go get it" command and throw another in a different direction. Stuff like that would snap her out of the zoomie/sharky mode and eventually would crash into a nap.

As gunnr mentioned, trying to use pressure techniques as in using force or domination to calm down the zoomie/sharkie mode is probably going to be counter-productive. Trust me , we've made plenty of mistakes along the way as we get frustrated , especially when we know that she knows she is being bad. We're at 5.5 mos with our girl now and boy what a difference a few months makes at this age.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thank you all for all the comments and sharing your experiences! I agree that I might have very high expectation for the puppy. Re-direction to something fun seems a good way to distract his "zoomie"/shaky behaviors. This is my first time to raise a puppy, I myself have some pressure to train/educate a good dog. Whatever, thank you all for the suggestions!
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Thank you for pointing out the mistake about grabbing his muzzle when he is in heavy play time!


There is a big difference in puppy training, than adult dog training. Puppy training is short sessions, and they get lots of praise/treats for doing things correctly.

Grabbing his muzzle when he is in heavy play time, is likely just amping him up even more.
It's very common for Vizsla puppies to be very bitey when they are overtired. Most of them have a witching hour in the evening, where they act this way.

If I grabbed a stick and gave one of my dogs a command. They wouldn't give the stick a second thought, as they have never been corrected with one. Nor should a 4 month old puppy.
I think your expectations are to high for his age, and it's making your training style be to rough on him.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Crescent

Pressure is a component of training. It has to be there as a foundation component for any desired behavioral response. Pressure is simply directing the puppy/dog to perform in a manner that is inconsistent with genetic imprinting. Pressure can be physically, mentally, and environmentally applied and released
Pressure is applied until the desired response is achieved, then it is removed. The moment the puppy/dog begins to respond, the pressure is released. It may be applied and reapplied multiple times during a training session. An example would be teaching the puppy/dog to come to you. You give the command, followed by a gentle tug on the leash cord. The very moment the puppy begins to come to you, you stop tugging, and in an animated manner, keep calling the puppy to you. It might get half way back and stray off, at which point the pressure is applied once again. What you don't want to do is once the puppy begins to come to you, you don't let the pressure off and reel them in like a fish. That's constant pressure and the puppy/dog never gets released. It learns nothing, and there is no long term modification of behavior.
Now then, let's be brutally honest about pressure No one gets it right 100% of the time. All of us make mistakes. All of us miss the point of release. It is something that both the handler and the dog will work on their entire life. After 30+ years with these dogs, I still screw it up sometimes. It seems like such a simple concept, but the timing, duration, and amount of pressure, are critical. Luckily, dogs have a very forgiving nature, and routinely make us look better than we should at times.
In your post you identified that the puppy was being held back at meals for a period of time, and then released. This is pressure. In an adult dog, this is desirable behavior, especially in multi dog household. A 4 month old puppy can be started on the process, but that is a lot of pressure early in a puppy's life.
Grabbing the puppy by the muzzle until he calms is another form of pressure. Unfortunately, he's to young to really understand what you're end goal objective is and is reacting out of instinct and fighting the restriction. You might want to try some positive redirection when this happens, like playing with a ball or stick. Redirect his focus from the behavior he is exhibiting.
What happens after the second walk in the evening? Is it something he doesn't want to do, is there something that routinely happens that is triggering him? He's trying to communicate with you, but there is now way for me to guess what he's trying to say.
Applying to much pressure, to early in a dogs life can cause any number of behavioral issues, and sometimes they don't come out for months, and then they do and it's hard to differentiate what is really happening. I almost ruined one of my dogs by applying to much pressure, to young.
They have to be allowed to be "puppies in training".
Thank you for all the points! We both have pressure, esp. during walk, he is always pushing the leash, he uses all his effort/body weight on the collar, that make our walk both tired and exhausted; later, I used gentle leader, that improves a lot, I'm much relax and he is also not that pushing, but he seems not like it, as he will try to use hand to wave the gentle leader off his muzzle~ whatever, the sweat broke out all over my back after each walk, I'm not sure he really enjoys the walk as it is on-leash walk. Sometime, I envy the other dogs' elegant walk with their owners, they looks so effortless~ I never expect that working the routines together with a puppy is so hard......
 

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@Crescent Loose leash walking takes a lot of time and training and is one of the more challenging things in my experience with dogs (which isn't too much). At the suggestion of another forum member I have been using https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00I4SG81A/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 this leash. It wraps under the chest and squeezes them when they pull as a form of self correction so they will decide to not put all their energy into pulling like crazy. Ours used to look like she was trying to climb a mountain on the ground to pull away.

Otherwise for a pup your age it may be asking too much for a perfect heel and perfectly loose leash just yet, but you can definitely start practicing with using treats as a lure. There's a lot of info out there on how to do it. Our 5.5mos girl knows the "heel" command and provided the distractions are low she can hold it for a good amount of time. When training we started heeling for 5feet, and now we can get a few hundred feet in optimal conditions. In the meantime, the leash I linked (they also have a smaller size) may help. I'd be cautious with the gentle leader, depending on the dog and how its used, there is information on the internet that it can be a risk for injury. This is why I tried the other type that I linked.

Personally, I'm taking her to a respectable trainer in my state in a few weeks as I feel I have hit a wall with my own abilities. I need the trainer to train me on the proper techniques that would work best for my dog. May be something to think about when the time is right around 6mos of age.
 

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At his age, you will be lucky to get a couple of minutes at a time without him pulling on lead.
Doing a minute or two of structured leash walking, followed by fun free time works out best. You just keep repeating the process on walks. As he gets it, you slowly up the time he should be walking nicely. Be sure to practice in the house, and other places with lower distractions. I like to use a high value treat, held next to my leg when practicing inside.

Right now you have a athletic, rambunctious puppy, with a short attention span. Loose leash walking does not come easy for them.
Plan on working on this for months to come.
 
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I'd be cautious with the gentle leader, depending on the dog and how its used, there is information on the internet that it can be a risk for injury. This is why I tried the other type that I linked.

Personally, I'm taking her to a respectable trainer in my state in a few weeks as I feel I have hit a wall with my own abilities. I need the trainer to train me on the proper techniques that would work best for my dog. May be something to think about when the time is right around 6mos of age.

This is very, very, good advice.
The gentle leaders, Halti's, and others are wonderful devices when used correctly, but at their core, they're an adaption of a war bridle for a horse, or what has now evolved to be a "bitless bridle". A rope halter would also be an adequate comparison. War Bridles have been around in one form or another for thousands of years. This is not a new device.
They work by applying pressure to the nose and poll of the neck. Rope halter have knots tied in them to apply a very localized pressure on a horse. When the horse, or dog, pulls against the halter, pressure is applied. Theh handlers hand remains stationary, or in a moving plane.
The dog has to yield to the pressure to release it. This means that the dog, and only the dog, should be applying and releasing the pressure. The handler should not be applying pressure. If the dog cannot escape the pressure on it's own, it can flip right over it's neck backward in an attempt to release the pressure being applied by the handler. A horse will do exactly the same thing. 60 lbs. of dog is one thing. 1200 lbs.of horse is a whole different matter.
They are wonderful devices in the correct hands, but they take a good measure of discipline on the handlers part to be effective.
All training aids have their pros and cons, and need to be understood before they are used.
I personally like a nice, padded, full support, harness for puppies and young dogs. Pressure is applied to the chest and shoulders, and they are very limited in their ability to hurt themselves. It takes a lot longer, but it is safer and forces a handler to interact their dog.
.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
@Crescent Loose leash walking takes a lot of time and training and is one of the more challenging things in my experience with dogs (which isn't too much). At the suggestion of another forum member I have been using https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00I4SG81A/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 this leash. It wraps under the chest and squeezes them when they pull as a form of self correction so they will decide to not put all their energy into pulling like crazy. Ours used to look like she was trying to climb a mountain on the ground to pull away.

Otherwise for a pup your age it may be asking too much for a perfect heel and perfectly loose leash just yet, but you can definitely start practicing with using treats as a lure. There's a lot of info out there on how to do it. Our 5.5mos girl knows the "heel" command and provided the distractions are low she can hold it for a good amount of time. When training we started heeling for 5feet, and now we can get a few hundred feet in optimal conditions. In the meantime, the leash I linked (they also have a smaller size) may help. I'd be cautious with the gentle leader, depending on the dog and how its used, there is information on the internet that it can be a risk for injury. This is why I tried the other type that I linked.

Personally, I'm taking her to a respectable trainer in my state in a few weeks as I feel I have hit a wall with my own abilities. I need the trainer to train me on the proper techniques that would work best for my dog. May be something to think about when the time is right around 6mos of age.

Thanks for sharing the tips!
 

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A lot of great advice given. But have you tried and put him in his crate when he is zooming? He might be overtired, overstimulated from a long day ( and maybe too much pressure on training, as indicated) and just needs a quiet place to get some sleep. They still need 18h per day at that age.

Crating gives you and your pup peace.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
A lot of great advice given. But have you tried and put him in his crate when he is zooming? He might be overtired, overstimulated from a long day ( and maybe too much pressure on training, as indicated) and just needs a quiet place to get some sleep. They still need 18h per day at that age.

Crating gives you and your pup peace.
We put his crate upstairs for night sleeping, for day time, we usually have a playpen 24 inch tall, however, he recently can jump out of the playpen, that's why we ordered a new one with 40 inch tall, it hasn't arrived yet, and also I don't want to ruin his night crate if I put him in the "crate" to calm him down, he sleeps very well at night, 9pm-7am whole night sleep. When the new playpen arrives, I will set up his calm zoom for him in a quite room downstairs.
 

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Wow 9pm to 7am? thats amazing. We're lucky to get 11pm to 6am! We recently replaced our puppy playpen with another crate in our living room. So now we have a bedroom crate for sleeping, and a living room crate for naps or when we just need to put Ellie in to get stuff done for a bit. She happily took to the new crate in lieu of the play pen corral. May be something to consider. Apparently having multiple crates for different purposes is fine to them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Wow 9pm to 7am? thats amazing. We're lucky to get 11pm to 6am! We recently replaced our puppy playpen with another crate in our living room. So now we have a bedroom crate for sleeping, and a living room crate for naps or when we just need to put Ellie in to get stuff done for a bit. She happily took to the new crate in lieu of the play pen corral. May be something to consider. Apparently having multiple crates for different purposes is fine to them.
During the 9pm-7am, my husband will wake him up once to go out for pee (sometimes he forgot to do so, it seems alright, perhaps because we remove water after 7:30pm as he has enough water intake during the day). I feel that the crate is too small for them to stay longer time, I need to go for work about 3~4h, we need sth for him to stay calmly for at least 3h. So far, the playpen seems work fine, with lots of toys and water bowl inside.
 

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I remember that time period with mine. He was horrible. My daughter used to walk around with the dog hanging off her. She didn’t even want to be around him for months. Then one day it stopped. It’s teething and being tired.

We held his mouth shut and said no. Helped some. Eventually he just stopped. Maybe 5 months?
Now he’s the best dog ever

Teething/biting is really the only issue these dogs have. It’s a very high energy dog. They are not mellow pups
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I remember that time period with mine. He was horrible. My daughter used to walk around with the dog hanging off her. She didn’t even want to be around him for months. Then one day it stopped. It’s teething and being tired.

We held his mouth shut and said no. Helped some. Eventually he just stopped. Maybe 5 months?
Now he’s the best dog ever

Teething/biting is really the only issue these dogs have. It’s a very high energy dog. They are not mellow pups
Thanks for sharing your experience! My daughter is the same, the puppy bites her hand and sometimes even jumping and howling at her, so she dislikes him, the puppy~, only pet him when he is tired and calm down on the couch. In the first couple of weeks, I'm so disappointed to see this...now, things seem to change a bit, slowly going in a good direction. Hope we will get through this!
 
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