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Discussion Starter #1
We have recently introduced our 6 month old V to raw food. She loves it and really seems to enjoy her new diet.

However I recently read an article quoting different vets. In the article one quote mentioned how dangerous raw food diets are too humans and that they had seen two deaths as a direct result of feeding their pets a raw food diet.

We have two young children so this has been playing on my mind a little. Does anyone know how true this is?

Cheers.
 

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I feed raw and I've never had a problem.
I buy the mince/ tripe/ chicken or fish blocks frozen from my local farm shop butcher.Also marrow bones. Chicken and chops I buy fresh once a week.
I take the blocks out of the freezer at night and leave it covered,it's ready to feed at 6am. They get two each for breakfast plus a raw egg at least twice a week.
I take them out at 9,and when we get home around 12 they each get a marrow bone ( 3 or 4 times a week) for an hour. They have the bones on a towel or vet bed in the kitchen or garden ,or sometimes in the car. I always wash their bowls up straight away,mop the floor if any spillages happen. I throw used bones away ,they don't lay around. I wash the towel and vet bed daily. We leave for more walks about 1.30, at dinner time they have some veg leftovers,maybe a raw carrot.
If you follow a solid clean regime and your kids aren't in contact with raw meat I don't see how they can catch salmonella or other nasties? My kids never go near the dogs when they're eating.
We're all so scared of germs ,how did we ever survive?! ???
I do anti-bac the work surfaces though ;)
 

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I don't intend to jump into the fray again, only to offer that UC Davis Veterinarians discourage RAW feeding, the American Veterinary Medicine Association has a written position against it, the American Animal Health Association has a written position against it, the National Association of State Public Health Veterinarians are against it, etc, etc.

https://www.avma.org/News/JAVMANews/Pages/121015l.aspx
(please note this is from a Professional Veterinary organization, not a blog or website set up specifically as a special interest page to support or denigrate RAW feeding)

“Based on overwhelming scientific evidence, AAHA does not advocate or endorse feeding pets any raw or dehydrated nonsterilized foods, including treats that are of animal origin,” the AAHA position states.

I also read something recently from a Veterinarian that had two Owners die and others fall significantly ill - allegedly related to salmonella poisoning and the fed RAW.

I have enough challenges maintaining sanitation and bleaching play yards, pens, bowls, crates, bedding, etc. I don't need to intentionally add any risk of additional pathogens when there are balanced nutritional and relatively safer alternatives (which of course RAW supporters will now jump on the attack and wish to debate), but that's my choice and decision.

Good luck in making yours.

Ken
 

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All my dogs eat wild game will flex with any or all

(cooked)

Salmon in buckets
Buffalo
Elk
Moose
Elk
Deer
Duck and tons more

Dog food in general is junk and Vets some great most no little about real pure foods vits and supplements

western meds are massive side effects for sheep

Mother God Humbles all of it to me
 

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Medium rare, thanks for asking.

Went to small, expensive French restaurant with my friend. I ordered my stake well done... suddenly, the everyone became quiet and looked toward us.
"You're not French, are you", said the waitress.

Next time I'll google "table manners at French bistro" before deciding to pop in and spend $200.
 

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Buffalo burgers are great ;)

far more protein and almost zero fat

next to beef
 

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Discussion Starter #10
WillowyndRanch,
That's exactly what I've been concerned about.
So to everyone else who does raw feed. Do you all cook, or part cook your food? Or pup has been eating completely raw food... For now.
 

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Rummy said:
WillowyndRanch,
That's exactly what I've been concerned about.
So to everyone else who does raw feed. Do you all cook, or part cook your food? Or pup has been eating completely raw food... For now.
The worst thing you could do is part cook!! Either all in or not at all.

My boy eats Raw.

For every study against it there are plenty for it. Many of the Vet associations that publish these studies are funded or sponsored by dry dog food companies.

You get dry dog food recalls sometimes due to...yep you guessed salmonella poisoning. There are dangers in any feed. My boy is on a dry diet as he had horrible allergies and my Vet...yep you read it right said that a Raw diet often helps. Sure enough he went from a thin sick boy with lots of bumps all over his body to a power house of pup.

Main thing really is that if you feed Raw be careful and don't leave raw meat laying about the house and always wash your hands. You can get infections from taking a poo or piss and not washing your hands so difference here really.

Also don't feed you pup just raw meat include some carb sources and veg too. Lucky for us we feed him from a company in the UK that sells complete raw food in 500g or 1kg packs. Here is a link. http://www.naturalinstinct.com/ It is all human grade food.
 

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WillowyndRanch said:
I don't intend to jump into the fray again.....
I love posts that start like that.....and then jump back into the fray with a long detailed post complete with references ;D
 

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Natural instinct smells awful! And it's grey :-\
If you ask your butcher they can supply you good bloody meat blocks at a fraction of the cost of natural instinct. ;)
 

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Vida said:
Natural instinct smells awful! And it's grey :-\
If you ask your butcher they can supply you good bloody meat blocks at a fraction of the cost of natural instinct. ;)
Funny you say this as my neighbor is a butcher. So I do get lots of stuff off him. Mac is limited to only two meats though. Duck and Turkey. I get the Duck off natural instinct. I am surprised you have had a bad experience with them as so far I always get good quality already frozen product off them.
 

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I really didn't intend to get into this again, but I'm like a moth to a flame...

born36 said:
For every study against it there are plenty for it.
I'd love to read this plethora of studies, because there are dozens that raise caution flags. Can you provide us with a scientific study that proves the efficacy and health benefits please? (other than the one THEORETICAL opinion by Prochaska and Piekutowski that is oft touted but their summary of their review of medical journals states "the role of enzyme synergy has not been studied in sufficient detail to predict its biological significance". I'm not asking for a blog post or a web page that promotes RAW, but an actual true Level 1,2, 3 or 4 Veterinary study.

born36 said:
Many of the Vet associations that publish these studies are funded or sponsored by dry dog food companies.
Ah.. the old conspiracy theory inuendo. Unable to prove but don't we all just find it juicy and maybe just believable enough to go "hmmm... big bad EVIL dog food company corporate villians in cahoots with all these money grubbing Veterinarians and their associations..."

born36 said:
You get dry dog food recalls sometimes due to...yep you guessed salmonella poisoning.
Absolutely true. And the recall is either because their quality control discovered there may be salmonella discovered in their product or dogs/people were getting ill. It seems it is expected in RAW, and that's ok though.

An Abstract by the Canadian Veterinary Journal:

"There are several studies that document the presence of infectious agents in raw foods and the potential for contaminating or shedding these agents in the pet’s environment. A recent study (15) analyzed 240 samples from 20 commercially prepared raw meat dog diets (beef, lamb, chicken, or turkey), 24 samples from 2 commercial dry dog foods, and 24 samples from 2 commercial canned foods. The commercial foods were collected on 4 different dates, 2 mo apart.
Almost 6% of the raw food diets were positive for Salmonella, while none of the conventional diets were positive.
80% of raw chicken diets were culture positive for Salmonella serovars, while none of the commercial dry foods were positive. Thirty percent of the stool samples of the raw chicken eaters were also positive; the commercial diet consumers’ stools were negative

(15. Strohmeyer RA, Morley PS, Hyatt DR, Dargatz DA, Scorza AV, Lappin MR. Evaluation of bacterial and protozoal contamination of commercially available raw meat diets for dogs. J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2006;228:537–542.)

born36 said:
Main thing really is that if you feed Raw be careful and don't leave raw meat laying about the house and always wash your hands.
The main problem is that introducing known pathogens such as e-coli and Salmonella into one's living environment, especially with small children who are more susceptible. It's not just the food prep areas, it's the shedding and the problem that these pathogens are becoming more resistant.

"As there appears to be strong evidence that raw food can contain Salmonella, it is vitally important, if feeding a raw meat diet to a pet, that hygiene of the food preparation area and the feeding bowls be diligently maintained. This may, however, be difficult to achieve. A recent study found that standard methods of cleaning and disinfecting food bowls were minimally effective at eliminating Salmonella (35). This included soaking with bleach and cleaning in a dishwasher."(35. Weese JS, Rousseau J. Survival of Salmonella Copenhagen in food bowls following contamination with experimentally inoculated raw meat: Effects of time, cleaning, and disinfection. Can Vet J. 2006;47:887–889.)

"An outbreak of disease due to multi-drug resistant Salmonella Typhimurium in 4 animal facilities has been reported (21,22). Illness occurred in employees, clients, and animals that were present in 3 different companion animal facilities and 1 animal shelter (21,22). Eighteen humans and 36 animals were fecal culture positive for Salmonella. Some of the animals died. Equally disturbing was that some animals in the facilities and in clients’/employees’ homes cultured positive but were asymptomatic. Those affected clinically included veterinary staff, pet owners, children, and other pets. Although the diet fed to the pets was not discussed, the study demonstrated that Salmonella can cause disease in pets and that humans in contact are at risk."
(21. Wright JG, Tengelsen LA, Smith KE, et al. Multidrug-resistant Salmonella typhimurium in four animal facilities. Emerg Infect Dis. 2005;11:1235–1241. [PMC free article][PubMed]
22. Canadian Communicable Disease Report. Outbreaks of multidrug-resistant Salmonella typhimurium associated with veterinary facilities-Idaho, Minnesota and Washington 1999. CCDR. 2001. [Last accessed May 19, 2009]. p. 27.)

Ken
 

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As long as you follow meat handling and hygiene rules,how is it unsafe?
Butchers handle meat and they don't get sick, well I've never heard of one catching salmonella etc.. ???
 

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Unless your children are going to play with the raw meat or pup's feces you should be fine. Keep your counters clean and feed the pup using a stainless steel bowl that is cleaned with hot water and soap after every feeding.

Our pup had a horrific knee injury last year that went septic, and the vets said it almost spread to her entire body (they referred to her as the "septic puppy" when my hubby brought her in for a follow-up exam). She refused her kibble, wet food, cooked meat.... the only thing she would eat was raw "Primal" forumula food. It truly saved her life. I don't know if she'd be here today if we hadn't tried raw with her. We transitioned her back to kibble, but she is living proof that raw is a very healthy, nutritious way to feed a pup.
 

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Vida said:
As long as you follow meat handling and hygiene rules,how is it unsafe?
Butchers handle meat and they don't get sick, well I've never heard of one catching salmonella etc.. ???
The handling of the meat is only part of the equation. Since it is repeatedly and undeniably proven that there is significantly increased likelihood that RAW diets contain pathogens such as salmonella and e-coli than cooked or kibble, including resistant strains and the preparation that typically kills these pathogens (cooking) is not present in the RAW diet, the pathogens are then often passed through the system and spread in fecal matter.

Butchers wear gloves, aprons, booties, etc. , are foodsafe trained, and keep things at proper temeperatures. They sterilize the entire environment utilizing StarSan or similar Industrial grade sterilants that we don't in the home and don't have kids playing in the butcher shop. Hot water and soap do not kill many pathogens. Bleach solutions work much better, and Sanitizing agents better yet.

"not playing with the Pup's feces" is a bit misleading. Do kids play in the same yard as the dog or is it totally separate? EVERY time the dog evacuates it's bowels, is the area be 100% cleared of the organic fecal matter and then the area sanitized to kill off microscopic "shed" organisms so there is no chance a kid steps or crawls through a shed site? Is the home sanitized to a level that if a scrap of food dropped to the floor where little Jimmy is crawling around at Mom's feet he won't put a finger on a shed site? Did Dad step on a pile while cleaning the yard and then just wipe his shoe off in the grass and walk through the house, or did he strip off his shoes and sanitize them? I know this will seem folly and be regarded as "how did we all survive the germs". I'm not a germophobe as much as people might think, but infection control is a critically important aspect of what we do and people with a dog or two just don't fully comprehend how quickly and simply pathogens travel.

I understand there are many people who feel RAW has done their dogs a world of good, and that's great. However, What the OP was asking "Is there danger". I've answered that question as honestly and openly with as much SCIENTIFIC reference backing the answer as possible. The only responses are it worked great for me and I'm doing fine, which is wonderful and I'm happy for you; it is not a measurable, scientific statement, rather an opinion.
Multiple Health organizations have taken formal positions on the matter after reviewing multiple case and research studies. Their answer is Yes, there is increased RISK in feeding Raw to the family of illness. Does that mean every person who feeds RAW will keel over, of course not - it is merely stating that the RISK is higher. Children and elderly are typically more susceptible as their immune systems are not as developed or as strong respectively. By commenting that preparation areas etc Must be sanitized, this in effect endorses there is more Risk; knowing the risk is there and having to take extra precautions to attempt to reduce that risk.

Have it it, I'm out.

Ken
 
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