[Milowinger]

Hi, I’m hoping some experienced dog owners here may be able to help me with some answers/advice. I’m not sure what section to post this in as he is a puppy, is having odd behavior, and this is related to diet, so I figured I would post in the general section.

I have an 8 month old male Vizsla who about a bit more than a week ago is refusing to eat more often than not. When he does eat he leaves more in the bowl than he eats. At last check he was 58 pounds.

He has always eaten his kibble mixed with some warm water twice per day, morning and evening. He would eat 2 cups AM and a little more than 2 cups PM. He just decided that he would refuse to eat on a regular basis. He will not eat the kibble at all, looks at it and walks away. I have tried everything I can think of with little results.

I have switched flavors, then brands of kibble. I then added several types/brands of wet food to the kibble with him still either just picking at it or ignoring the bowl altogether. I then bought freeze dried toppers and added that ground up and mixed with the kibble and wet food…same results. I then bought canine broth, warmed it up and added it to the mix of kibble, wet food, and topper….same results. I have tried hand feeding him and he has little to no interest.

I took him to the vet and they did not do any tests but from observing his behavior told me there isn’t anything physically wrong with him and he’s healthy. They prescribed an appetite stimulant and probiotics. This hasn’t helped either. He will gladly eat treats and anything he finds on the ground outdoors but not his meals.

My neighbor feeds his puppy a raw diet so I figured I would try that. He helped me prepare a large batch for my dog. This he ate with no problem but I have noticed a change in his urination. I fed him this diet for one day and he wound up urinating three times in the house, almost clear. He is perfectly house trained and never has accidents.

I also noticed him drinking less and urinating much more outdoors.

The ingredients of a batch of this diet are as follows: 15 pounds of raw ground turkey, 90 ounces of cooked (steamed) spinach (7.5 12 ounce bags of frozen spinach), 2 15 ounce cans of canned pumpkin, 5 tablespoons of iodized salt, and 2 teaspoons of bone meal. I bought a food grade 5 gallon bucket and a stirrer that I attach to my drill and mix it all up.

I grew suspicious of the urinary change so I investigated if spinach can cause any issues for dogs. It seems that in large quantities on a continual basis it can cause kidney issues among other physical problems due to its high content of oxalic acid. I am totally new to this type of feeding and have no idea if this recipe is dangerous for my dog to eat. I would love to have him back on kibble in some amount. I don’t know how long is safe for him not to eat if I just try to wait him out. That seemed to be the thinking of the Vet. I keep giving in and trying to get him to at least eat something. He is very stubborn and it would not surprise me if he went for days without eating if I just offer him kibble.

If anyone has advice on what I’ve described, or has suggestions on different ingredients for this raw diet your input would be greatly appreciated. I thought the raw diet had finally given me some progress but I’m not giving him anymore of that unless I find out if it’s safe and not going to mess up his kidneys in the amount in the mix. I’m very concerned about him not eating well at this stage of his life as he should be growing, not hardly eating anywhere near what he was.

I have an appointment with the Vet again on the 1st and I’m not sure what to do in the interim. Thanks for putting up with the long post, and again, any input would be great.

 

[Gabica]

I have switched several years ago to raw diet and has worked very well for us. Several points here, trying to be as detailed as possible:
1. i buy a frozen mix which is 80/10/10 (muscle meat, bones, organs including 5 % liver). i thaw usually as much as i need for the next 24 hours
2. i add certain fruits in the morning and veggies in the evening. Fruits vary: blueberries, blackberries, strawberries, mango, apple, pear, nectarines in rotation, sometimes a bit of banana or raspberries, as snack i could add some melon in the afternoon). Veggies: yellow squash, broccoli, zuccini (these there i steam), tomatoes, red bell peppers on a regular basis, some other veggies occasionally, but i don`t give mine spinach either. in the mornings i add ground pumpkin seed, in the evenings hemp oil (except when feeding chicken, then i skip the hempoil). they get 2-3 times a week a boiled egg each.
3. all of our treats are freeze dried or dehydrated and i try to compensate what i gave them in their main meal. example: if i gave them a meal which had green tripes in it ( great probiotics and teeth cleaner) then their chew will be more something with collagen and chondroitin in it etc.
4. i rotate across many different types of proteins, turkey is just one of them. i rotate the proteins daily or sometimes i mix up two different types for thd next 2-3 days.
5. they will naturally drink less as the raw meat has a lot of liquid in it. i do not add any salt to their food and avoid any treats which has salt added
6. i pay attention to warming and cooling meat types as we live here in a hot climate and also do a lot of different sports
7. there are lots of raw feeding support groups out there, i read a lot of articles on dogsnaturally.com and see what is applicable for my situation
8. raw diet gets digested much quicker than kibble, so instead of feeding them once as i feed my adults dogs twice, the morning meal being smaller than the evening one

hope this helps, feel free to reach out fi any further help needed.

 

[texasred]

One thing to keep in mind, if your feeding kibble. Somewhere between 8 months and around a year, most start eating less. They have finished about 85- 90 percent of their growth. So need less calories than when they were rapidly growing.
Keep a eye on the scale, as he should not be losing weight.

 

[Milowinger]

Thank you for your replies. I am still wondering if I should feed him the remainder of the food I made with the high amount of spinach in it? Also, how long can he safely go without eating? He has lost 2 pounds. Thanks.
PS: I'm just trying to get him stabilized at this point, there is so much to take in if considering a permanent switch to raw....it's overwhelming. I realize I must be responsible for all his dietary needs if committing to this and opinions are all over the place.on ingredients. The last thing I want to do is mess up, hence the stoppage of the 20 pounds of stuff I made the other day with loads of spinach. I've had 8 dogs in my life and never had one not eat even a reasonable amount for an extended period as this. Usually all it would take is a little mixing of wet food to get them going again. I am frankly overwhelmed when googling this raw stuff. I need to get him to eat his kibble right now and then take the time to investigate raw. He is VERY stubborn and for all I know it may be a behavioral issue. Thank you again.

 

[Milowinger]

Any idea what is a safe alternative to spinach that he can eat everyday in a similar quantity to what I have mixed in the original batch? Thank you.

 

[Gabica]

Any idea what is a safe alternative to spinach that he can eat everyday in a similar quantity to what I have mixed in the original batch? Thank you.

steamed broccoli, yellow squash, zucchini. it is important to add and rotate different types of veggies, fruits and proteins . they each have different nutritional value, without a balanced diet your dog may end up really missing out on something.

 

[Milowinger]

steamed broccoli, yellow squash, zucchini. it is important to add and rotate different types of veggies, fruits and proteins . they each have different nutritional value, without a balanced diet your dog may end up really missing out on something.

I've been trying to do much investigation on the subject and according to many sites including PetMD and AKC they're saying things such as spinach, broccoli, and kale should not be eaten everyday and in very small portions, like a couple of teaspoons. So I am really confused as to what to give him in a raw diet. My neighbor is telling me I'm reading BS so I'm really confused.

 

[Gabica]

there are certain things which are a given for the majority of dogs, like chocolate, raisins, coffee etc are a no. then there are individual differences which only you as a dog owner can figure. and then just like in a human body, theirs is going thru changes. ie as a puppy i would give a good amount of sweet potato, now as adults that hardly ever happens.
my dogs loved their kibble (Orijen), and never had any health issues while on that. it had all of those veggies and fruits i mentioned and probably even more. But they were eating a pooping and immense amount and keeping weight on them became more and more difficult, which i figured was the result of the legumes in the kibble. Hence i switched to raw after consulting many raw feeders and started adding fruits and veggies, checking how they do on that. I don`t give them a huge amount of broccoli and i started with like one steamed broccoli head and gradually increased it to about 5 per dinner. Like i said i thaw their frozen mix and add the veggies and fruits right before feeding, so i can control easily how much and what goes in on different days.
Salt is a big no for me, in my view and experience they don`t need it and that can cause kidney challenges. Again you will read different views about that too.
So yes, it is work for sure.
Depending on where you live you may want to check whether there are any raw feeding companies and try their products. We have Texastripe truck delivery in my area and that has worked for us very well, different regions have other companies doing a similar activity.

 

[Milowinger]

I know spinach is a big offender according to what I've read, especially for puppies. Is it BS....I have no idea!

 

[Milowinger]

I spoke with his breeder and she told me to just put down his kibble and if he doesn't eat it within 15 minutes to take it away until next feeding time. So far he has missed 2 meals with absolutely no interest. He's going to the Vet tomorrow and then on Saturday his breeder is coming in to observe him first at my home and then take him back to her home for temporary observation. I feel terrible seeing him not eat at all and having no idea how to fix it. I've had 8 dogs in my life from puppies and never run into refusal to eat for such an extended period. I have run out of ideas.

 

[Val helm]

hello, spinach can be toxic to dogs. this may be the reason for clear urine

 

[Milowinger]

hello, spinach can be toxic to dogs. this may be the reason for clear urine

Yes I stopped that after one day after researching it. He went to the Vet for a full battery of tests and he's perfectly healthy. It seems to me like a behavioral issue. I can sometimes get him to eat out of my hand but he will never approach the bowl as he used to. He is acting strangely too. I have tried different bowls in different areas of the house with no success. He is acting fearful at times, and at other times he is wild, lots of jumping on me, swinging paws at your face and mouthing hands and even my face.. His breeder is coming to pick him up tomorrow and take him back and observe him. I have run out of ideas. He's either very out of control, or very subdued as if he's depressed. There is something mental going on in my opinion.

 

[texasred]

Maybe the breeder will be able to figure it out, and the change of scenery might help too.

 

[Milowinger]

He's been with the breeder for 3 days. He is acting fine with the other dogs and her family. He only ate one meal on Monday since he left here. She is going to try some things but really is surprised and unable to understand why he's not eating as of yet. She was going to look in his mouth for a splinter or abscess. I don't think he has either as he will eat treats and chew on a bully stick for a few hours with no sign of pain.
In the two days prior to the breeder taking him I was able to get him to eat two full meals for two days by tricking him into thinking I wanted to eat his food. I would pick up kibble from his bowl and pretend I was eating it. He slowly started eating and finished up. He would not go near it on his own. The four bowls of kibble he ate were straight kibble, not even water added. I think he has some sort of behavioral issue going on but I'm no expert. He ate fine and on schedule for months, then one day he just stopped. Even when I trick him into eating it's way past his scheduled time. Everyone is stumped over this and I'm frankly worried about it as it's been going on for quite some time now.

 

[Milowinger]

He is with the breeder now 6 days. He won't eat breakfast and will only eat dinner in a crate, and not very enthusiastically. She gave him some canned pumpkin the other day and he ate that fine. Yesterday he refused that also. He is eating 2 cups per day at this point. In normal times he was eating over 4 cups per day. I asked her if she was concerned about this as I am and she says she is not.
She says maybe he's not a breakfast dog, yet he always has been. She says maybe I should just free feed him. At the beginning she said we just have to figure out his code, now it seems she says just let him be. I can't understand how a dog could go to eating half his normal intake, and having to eat it unenthusiastically in a crate...eventually. She is keeping him another week to observe him but I don't see the point. She is a really good breeder who has gone out of her way to help but I just can't get comfortable just letting him stay this way.
I would assume that when I get him back he eventually will start to loose weight on half rations. I have no answers and have exhausted all I could think of doing to get to the bottom of this by having a full workup at the Vet, and having him go back to his breeder for observation. I have no answers but plenty of stress as I don't want to watch him fade away. This has been going on for almost a month. Feeling very helpless here. Thanks for your input.

 

[Gabica]

skipping breakfast during adolescent age is not uncommon, especially when they are on kibble. lot of hunting dogs eat only once a day and they are fine. as i understood it is not recommended for raw feeding, so mine eat about 1/4th of their daily portion in the morning and the rest in the evening.
Having said that going this quickly from 4 cups to 2 would worry me too, especially if you see unnecessary weight loss as well.
what did the detailed vet checkup entail? the reason i am asking is that unfortunately some tests won`t reveal issues and you would have to go beyond them. A specific example: Miksa slept thru the night at around 11 weeks and even before he has never had any potty accidents, no upset stomach as a puppy etc. Suddenly at around 1.5 years old he would wake up middle of the night screaming in his crate, after taking him out to potty, him peeing for a good 2 minutes in a big stream without ever putting down his leg. Several hours later same thing and then throughout the day too. Also acting hyper, drank a lot and started guarding the water bowl from Bende! So i rushed him to the vet, we did bloodwork and urine test, the only thing they found was that the urine density was low, which was a result of drinking a lot. Everything else looked perfect... so i started thinking when did this start, sure enough around a day after getting his flea and tick preventive... so i stopped giving those and as the chemical left his body, he went back to his normal self and never had this issue for years now.
i get that it must be very frustrating and stressful not knowing what is really going on with him, my thoughts are with you.

 

[Milowinger]

The Vet did full blood workup, urine, fecal and all came back normal. He does eat at times and passes so I don't believe he has a blockage. I'm no expert but it seems mental to me. I'm worried that he should be growing and instead he's eating half of what he was and he won't eat it on his own without some sort of trickery. Breeder says he hasn't lost weight but I don't think she is actually weighing him, just eyeballing how he looks. He hadn't lost any weight when the breeder picked him up but I was going out of my way to get him to eat, trying all kinds of wet food, toppers ect. It's frustrating to see a dog that ate fine just look at his bowl and show no interest. Everything I read people say after a few days they show interest in eating.
He is stubborn but I can't see him being stubborn enough to not eat when he should be hungry, especially when we are talking weeks. I wish I was getting him back earlier because he's now only eating 2 cups inside a crate. He never eats in a crate at home. He's with his sister and mother so I would think that would be more of an incentive to eat due to competition. It's going on long enough that I'm not sure he will get back to normal. Then what do I do....I have no clue. Thank you, yes it is very stressful.

 

[OakleysMom]

Our 2 year old V has had a complicated relationship with food - not to the extreme you're describing, and I feel for you - so frustrating and worrisome. Not sure if it's helpful, but some things that came to my mind based on our experience with our guy... Oakley won't eat before 10am, which is about 3 hours after he wakes up and after his hour walk/off-leash run. He gets another 30 minute on-leash walk at midday, and then another hour off-leash romp at the end of the day. I presume your guy is getting enough exercise... Oakley gets a lot of training treats during the day, which we notice does impact the amount of food he eats at mealtime. Our 2 cats "lurk" while he eats, so we finally have figured out he needs to eat in his crate in our bedroom, otherwise he gets anxious and won't eat. A previous dog of ours wouldn't eat from the metal bowl - I think you mentioned you've tried different bowls. Has anything changed in your life that might have unsettled the dog? New baby? A move, or change to routine? Our guy is so sensitive to those things and we see the result in his appetite. We have to "mix up" what we feed Oakley pretty much every 3-4 weeks. He's been on lots of different kibble, and we've found one now that seems to work, but he also gets different "toppers" - and he loves them all initially, but grows tired of them, and then we need to switch up the rotation. Good luck, I hope you figure this out, rooting for you!

 

[Milowinger]

Thanks for your response. The breeder is getting him to eat somewhat regularly but only when put in a crate. There aren't any changes that I can think of that would have set him off eating. Since I got him at 10 weeks old he had always eaten outside of his crat on a regular schedule twice daily. Right before the breeder took him I was able to trick him by making believe I was eating his food out of his bowl. Another oddity is that when I could get him to eat it was way off schedule. He always ate at 6AM, and PM. Right before he left he wouldn't eat until around 10AM and 8PM. If he always ate in a crate it would be one thing, but only eating in the crate now is still telling me something isn't right since that was never his pattern. It's still a mystery. She says he's great and happy......I'm glad of that but he still isn't acting normal IMO. I hope when I get him back I can make some progress towards getting him back to where he was. As this has been going on for some time now I'm not sure I can but I certainly will keep trying.

 

[texasred]

Your pup is very close to the age, mine start deciding they only want one meal a day. Or a very light snack late morning, and their meal in the evening.
I wouldn’t worry about where the pup is eating, only glad that the breeder is getting him to eat. Heifer will sometimes get to eat out of her crate. If she gets to sidetrack to finish her food, I just crate her with it.