Vizsla breeders: Let's get real - Hungarian Vizsla Forums
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post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old 06-21-2019, 09:35 AM Thread Starter
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Vizsla breeders: Let's get real

I'm currently on the hunt to purchase a vizsla puppy (using a burner account for obvious reasons). Our family's first V passed away ~4 years ago at age 15. It took a while, but we're now ready to bring another crazy vizsla into our lives. We're absolutely nutso about the breed -- indeed, several of our closest (human) friends were introduced via our mutual love of vizslas.

However, I’d describe our recent experience with vizsla breeders to be "interesting", to say the least. We've had a few mis-starts with 3 different breeders, which stemmed from the breeder's caginess over whether there were actually puppies available and just generally poor communication. We've visited a few vizsla puppy litters too. Both my wife and I noted that during our visit, the breeders tended to talk non-stop and always treated my wife and me as though we'd never previously seen a vizsla. More of a minor annoyance than anything...I'm all for learning more about vizslas, but we've spent lots of time being "talking at" rather than "having a conversation with", if you catch my meaning.

Over the last several weeks, we met a breeder and visited a gorgeous litter of vizsla puppies. We were very, very excited and felt like we'd found our new little one. However, relatively late in the game, we've had to walk away. The breeder's contract was unworkable and has scared us off of the purchase. The contract runs 16 (!) pages in length. It had a large number of micromanaging provisions that mandated a ton of vague buyer requirements regarding the puppy’s future training / socialization, nutrition, a variety of health provisions, etc. Essentially, these provisions gave the breeder ongoing control rights on detailed aspects of raising the dog. Even worse, violating these very, very broad provisions allowed the breeder the right to re-possess the dog from us. As a buyer – particularly one with prior vizsla experience -- I cannot imagine agreeing to re-possession rights, particularly when coupled to a large number of broad terms that are subjective and open to interpretation.

Finally, the breeder has extremely strong views on neutering. The contract required us NOT to neuter until age 3, and then only with the breeder’s permission. This provision in particular made it seem like the breeder wanted a provisional contract and the right to take back the (non-neutered) dog if the dog turned out to be show-worthy.

The breeder’s contract was characterized as her “standard” contract and an identical version was presented to all of the other buyers of the rather large litter.

As a buyer, I understand the need for provisions against future breeding and other standard stuff. I'm not opposed to signing a contract at all. However, there should be “contract terms” that are limited in scope and enforceable, and then “breeder recommendations” on the issues like socialization, training, health, etc. Those are different things, and breeders need to get that.

We certainly had no issues in purchasing our first dog. Breeders need to understand that these onerous contracts do not actually protect their dogs: in this case, it will prevent one of their dogs from ending up in a wonderful home with experienced vizsla owners. We walked away and will continue our search.

Any other buyers out there who have experienced micromanaging vizsla breeders and issues with the purchase contract?
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post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old 06-21-2019, 01:41 PM
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It's hard to tell what your question here, it sounds like a rant.

I get the frustration that desperation and desire create. And, I get that you're an experienced Vizsla caretaker. And, I sure get your response to the self importance some breeders unnecessarily inject into what should be a joyful process for everyone.

But, as Vizslas have become more popular and the demand has far outstripped supply, those quality breeders who do so to advance the breed and not just cash in on their new found popularity feel under pressure to better assure that the unwashed masses who bombard them with requests and demands for their product meet minimum criteria. A Vizsla is not like other "Dogs", and not everyone who is enamored with them should be granted adoption. That you apparently do not fall into that category is unfortunate. You need to redouble your efforts at clearly saying so.

There's two things to recall about "Contracts". The first, is that a long document isn't necessarily a turn off as much as a reflection of these concerns, read the fine print carefully. If you've done your homework and chosen a breeder based on their history and philosophy and the dogs they've produced and what they've gone on to attain, then the contract is just the price of getting the Ferrari. Instead of seeing it as a reflection of their own entitlement or arrogance, see it as a reflection of the knowledge they have of the breed and the concern they have for their pups long after adoption. A non neutering clause for 3 years is scientifically sound. A non neutering clause forever might not, especially with females.

The second thing to realize about "Contracts" is that they sound official, but unless there's a clearly stated mechanism for enforcement and remedy for violation, the breeder really cannot do anything should you "Violate" some clause. Likewise, make sure the contract protects you as well. For instance, a clause about health guarantees for a period of time, perhaps 3 years... and the remedy should some genetic disorder occur in that time period.

I adore my breeder of 25 years and there's absolutely nothing I wouldn't sign or agree to in order to obtain one of her pups. I also understand that the contract would be designed to protect the pup and the breed, not her ego. So, understandable burning desire aside, choose a breeder based on their demonstrable results, hold your nose, and sign the contract knowing that it is designed to protect all of you.
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post #3 of 13 (permalink) Old 06-21-2019, 03:11 PM
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Not all buyers are easy to please, just as all breeders are not easy to please.
I don't care how many vizslas I had in my home. I want a breeder that has more experience with the breed, and bloodlines than I do.
If I run into a problem (even after owning 5Vs), they will be the first person I turn to.
I personally will not sign a contract, if I don't plan to fulfill it.
Your only choice is to keep looking. What are your plans for your new pup?

Not all those who wander are lost.

Life is just a leap of faith.
Spread your arms and hold your breath and always trust your cape.

Two things define you. Your patience when you have nothing, and your attitude when you have everything.
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post #4 of 13 (permalink) Old 06-23-2019, 09:06 AM
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Here in the UK my long established Vizsla breeder had a short contract, the two main clauses being 1. cannot breed from this dog without breeder's consent and 2. if ever the dog wasn't wanted or couldn't be kept any longer had to go back to the breeder and no-one else, so it couldn't be sold to someone else for a profit I guess.

This seems reasonable to me.
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post #5 of 13 (permalink) Old 06-23-2019, 09:18 AM
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The breeder we used is extremely reputable, been breeding V's for 25+ years and has impeccable track record. Matter of fact he breed one of the only V's that is a certified search and rescue service dog, one of only 3 V's in the world ever to earn that title. He's contract was entirely verbal in nature; no written contract.

I personally would never sign such a detailed and restrictive contract. You'll find a V breeder that's more reasonable IMHO. Time to find another V breeder...........

FWIW
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post #6 of 13 (permalink) Old 06-23-2019, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tegee26 View Post
The breeder we used is extremely reputable, been breeding V's for 25+ years and has impeccable track record. Matter of fact he breed one of the only V's that is a certified search and rescue service dog, one of only 3 V's in the world ever to earn that title. He's contract was entirely verbal in nature; no written contract.

I personally would never sign such a detailed and restrictive contract. You'll find a V breeder that's more reasonable IMHO. Time to find another V breeder...........

FWIW
Guessing you have a Busch Vizsla.
They just helped rehome one of their dogs, that they bred 11 years ago. Both owners had passed away.
You may not have had a signed contract, but they stand behind their dogs.
It's not something I would trust with a lot of breeders. But Busch is not just any breeder. Their actions speak for them.
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Not all those who wander are lost.

Life is just a leap of faith.
Spread your arms and hold your breath and always trust your cape.

Two things define you. Your patience when you have nothing, and your attitude when you have everything.
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post #7 of 13 (permalink) Old 06-23-2019, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by texasred View Post
Guessing you have a Busch Vizsla.
They just helped rehome one of their dogs, that they bred 11 years ago. Both owners had passed away.
You may not have had a signed contract, but they stand behind their dogs.
It's not something I would trust with a lot of breeders. But Busch is not just any breeder. Their actions speak for them.
Nice crystal ball TR. Yes, a Busch V and Milo is awesome.

Quite frankly we got REALLY lucky finding Linda & Jim; they put us in touch with Mitchell's Vizsla. Busch's (Spike) to Mitchell's (Molly). Sometimes you have to do business the old fashion way with trust, your word and a good ole handshake. Linda and Rick were awesome to work with. Again we got very very lucky finding them and very thankful as well.

We're in the process of getting a second (a female V) this time around. Fingers crossed, Rick just had a litter two days ago with 8-boys and 1-girl (we were 4th female on the list). Pretty bummed we missed this litter b/c it would have been from the same parents as Milo, oh well.
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Last edited by tegee26; 06-23-2019 at 08:01 PM.
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post #8 of 13 (permalink) Old 06-24-2019, 05:57 AM
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Tegee26
Linda will have two litters on the ground very shortly. No idea if the female puppies are spoken for.
Busch will be breeding less after these two litters.
Not sure if it's something your interested in, or not.

Not all those who wander are lost.

Life is just a leap of faith.
Spread your arms and hold your breath and always trust your cape.

Two things define you. Your patience when you have nothing, and your attitude when you have everything.
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post #9 of 13 (permalink) Old 06-24-2019, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by texasred View Post
Tegee26
Linda will have two litters on the ground very shortly. No idea if the female puppies are spoken for.
Busch will be breeding less after these two litters.
Not sure if it's something your interested in, or not.

Thank you TR....yes we were just made aware that the Busch's are "winding down"; not officially retiring. I believe they're doing 2-3 litters this summer and fall. I have to believe their wait list is long and getting a female may be hard? But we'll reach out to her away.

Rick Mitchell (Mitchell's Vizsla) is equally as good as Linda/Jim and he's been breeding together with the Busch's for over 25-years. He's V's are AWESOME too; that's where Milo came from September 2017. We're on his list as well for a female. So the good news is he'll carry on their line hopefully for many years to come. So thanks for sharing that.

Anyway, to that end, back to the original topic. I still feel strongly that you shouldn't need to engage in a multi-page contract if you don't feel comfortable doing so. My point was originally that there are plenty of very reputable breeders out there that are passionate about the breed and responsible about their breeding practices, etc that don't require extensive background checks and/or legally binding contracts.
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Last edited by tegee26; 06-24-2019 at 10:08 AM.
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post #10 of 13 (permalink) Old 06-24-2019, 03:08 PM
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While I did have to sign a contract on Shine, it was short. Part of it was to protect me, and the other to protect Shine.
A 2 year health guarantee against genetic/congenital problems. She is never to be bred, without the breeders consent. And if ever I am unable to keep her, the breeder will take her back.
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Not all those who wander are lost.

Life is just a leap of faith.
Spread your arms and hold your breath and always trust your cape.

Two things define you. Your patience when you have nothing, and your attitude when you have everything.
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