Topic: Sites, Books, DVD's and other resources? (Read 1160 times)

nbd13 · « **Reply #15 on:** August 29, 2010, 11:23:27 PM »

Hi Gunnr,

I'm working on introducing the gun to chance. Right now we are still at the stage of firing blanks around him. He is a skidish dog by nature, so this is taking some time to properly introduce him to guns. I don't want to make him gun shy and then break him of that as I've heard horror stories about this. So, I think taking my time is the key. Any tips or suggestions? Basically, we are having him find the birds and when he finds the birds, we steady him (I usually hold him around the chest petting him) and the other guy will flush the bird and let it fly away. We then let Chance go after the bird to chase it and when he starts to chase it we fire the blank. Should we be doing anything different?

I see what you mean about not spending too much time at this step....but what are your thoughts about him blinking on birds and not really pointing them? Does this just come with time and repetition? I see what you are saying that once he is broke to the sound of the gun we should start shooting birds over him, but what should we do till he is broke to the gun? I really want him to have a strong point....I have been working with him on whoa like crazy. He will do it off the lead now! But when he's on a bird, he will not do it. All his other commands are great! He will actually come to me when called and heel next to me without the lead on at all.

Thanks again for your advice,

Nick

Gunnr · « **Reply #16 on:** August 30, 2010, 12:34:18 PM »

Nick

I've never been one to focus on what the dog is doing wrong. Not that I don't notice it, it's just that I look more closely at what the dog is doing right.
"Focus on Strengths. Concentrate on Weaknesses".

If I look at Chance this is what I see:

In 35 days you have taken him from a "basic odediance trained pet", and now have him;
a.) Searching for game.
b.) Finding game.
c.) Communicating to you that he has found the game.
d.) Steady, somewhat, to wing.
e.) Marking the flight.
f.) Breaking him to the gun. Which by the way, is be done exactly the way it should be. If he is continuing to follow the bird after the gun is fired, and not runnign for the hills, you're pretty much there.

The point is, He is doing a heckuva of a lot of things right, learned them in a short period of time, and is providing you with a great foundation to build upon. You may also want to back off a little on the pressure, and just make some days fun for him.

In your post you are identifying that you are having trouble with the whoa. I'm assuming that you are trying to whoa him when he gets on a bird. Is this correct?
A mistake committed more often than not is to overuse the whoa when the dog gets on scent. The handler will repeatedly command "whoa,whoa,whoa" as soon as the dog begins to get hot. (Basically they don't trust the dog.)
What can happen here is that the dog will begin to react more to the whoa,a nd less to the bird,and when they finally do locate it and begin the point, they are anticipating correction and blink. The whoa is actually the command given only after the point is established. It steadies the dog, and sets up the retrieve. If you're whoaing him leading up to the bird, you're probably confusing him at this point. I use "easy" as the dog is getting hot. I just low and slow speak " easy" to them. It's not a command, it's more an audible cue to them that says. "I'm right here with ya' ". I am trying to "energetically absorb their nervous energy".

Point, "whoa", flush, shoot, fetch.

Let Chance go. Let him make his mistakes. He's doing so much right that he's earned a little slack,and you need to more correctly identify the issue.
If I were handling him, the next time, I would just let him go. I wouldn't even talk to him once he hit scent. Let him hunt with no inteference. He's going to get at those birds, so take the cardboard off them to give them a chance and try to get strong flyers. Let him "intentionally" bump them. Take Chance to a space between blinking and bumping, and then work from there.

No dog ever has, or ever will, start their first day afield as a "finished gun dog" It just can't happen. We try to present them with the basic framework through simulated hunting conditions, and outline our expectations through obediance training, but it takes real life experience handling "live birds", to really bring it all together. When it happens though, it's really cool. It's like a light switch goes off in them and they change in that moment. All of the sudden you have a new dog.

Back off on him a liittle bit, and let him absorb all he's learned. Let him make his mistakes naturally.

nbd13 · « **Reply #17 on:** August 30, 2010, 10:37:13 PM »

Hi Gunnr,

Yeah I have been trying to be real laid back with the training and encouraging him even if he doesn't do it perfect. He has come along way in 30 some days and I'm very proud of him and I for doing this together.

In regards to the whoa. I should back step and explain the whole process for you. I have only used it once with live quail. It was only the second time he was on quail and he actually locked up on point, I was about 30 yards away and said whoa. He didn't stay put and in hindsight I shouldn't have said the command. Maybe this threw him off a little? Not sure.

I went back to working Chance on the check cord at the dog park and around the house on whoa. He will know do it off the check cord around the house and at the dog park. I've tried it on some geese that are regulars at a pond by us and I can whoa him and walk towards the geese and he's fine. I'm scared to try it in a training situation with quail again. As I want him to be comfortable with the quail. I think he is still trying to figure the quail out.

I see what you are saying about using whoa too early and I think I read this earlier in this thread or in another thread that you made a post on. So, I have been diligently trying not to do this.

The last two time we went (we usually go once a week to the hunt club to train with quail), we let him off the check cord like you are suggesting and just let him go. He would find the birds without any problem what so ever. He would get close to them and then turn away from them. We would say good boy and he would go back to them. I then held him around the chest and would stroke his back saying good boy while the other guy with flush the bird. We'd let him chase and fire the pistol, let him chase some more and then get him and repeat this. He keeps chasing after the pistol is fired so we are making progress with this.

Maybe we should try taking the cardboard off the quail like you say and letting him bump them so they fly away naturally. We try to refrain from saying much in the way of commands to Chance. So, we are doing a modified version of what you are suggesting. I by no means thought we would already be this far in a little over 30 days and I'm very happy about it. I don't want to rush Chance. I just want him to not blink on the birds, but maybe this will come naturally if we let him bump some birds.

While I have your attention I wanted to get your advice about the retrieving part. I have a dead, frozen quail that I've been using to practice the retrieval process. I plant the birds, bring chance onto it, whoa him and then throw the bird. After it lands I say free fetch and he'll get it (all done on a 25 ft check cord) and loves running around with it. He won't bring it back to me though. He gets very possessive of it and I gently real him in saying bring it here. When he gets to me I say good boy and stroke his back and let me keep it in his mouth for a minute or so all the while saying good boy. He is making a low growling noise the whole time and I can gently grap it and say free and he'll give it to me. I guess the question is how do I get him to go get it and bring it back to my hand? I think the next step in the field after he is broke to the gun is to shoot birds over him and if he won't bring them back, then that's a problem....So what are your thoughts/tips? I've read about force training a day to retrieve, but not sure if this is the best way to go about it?

Thanks again you have been most helpful!

Nick

Gunnr · « **Reply #18 on:** September 01, 2010, 01:14:22 PM »

Nick

Force training to retrieve is for dogs that don't retrieve, and some people train every dog to force retrieve. It's not a nice process.

Chance doesn't seem to have problems retrieving. I think it's just a case of the bird being so new and enticing to him.
If he's giving it back on command you're pretty well off. I think it's just a matter of time, and work with the "live" dead bird.
Kep working him on the dead birds, but change your approach slightly. Let him see you throw it, and then send him for the retrieve. If you're going to plant the birds, as you are now, try to begin to teach him to "hunt dead". Drag the bird along the ground tied to a string to leave some scent, and then bring him into the area to pick up the scent and "hunt dead". Let him "retrieve" the dead bird that he hunted dead.
Keep his mind engaged. He sounds like a thinking dog,an d he needs the game "upped" a little bit to provide him with new things.

nbd13 · « **Reply #19 on:** September 01, 2010, 05:00:10 PM »

Thanks Gunnr,

I know the force retrieve training is not a nice thing. I was hoping to avoid it at all cost.

I will try stepping up my game and the suggestions you gave me and go from there.

I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks again!

Nick

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Author Topic: Sites, Books, DVD's and other resources? (Read 1160 times)

nbd13

Re: Sites, Books, DVD's and other resources?

Gunnr

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